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Top 15 Console RPGs of All Time

Date: 2007-09-20

Author: Mike Zeller


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   The RPG, or role-playing game, has in the past ten years or so become a staple of the video game industry, with the support of the RPG juggernaut, Square Enix, arguably having decided the last few console wars. Back in the halcyon days of Milli-Vanilli and The Smurfs, the console RPG was predominantly the domain of pimply teenage misfits and overweight shut-ins, but nowadays tons of folks play RPGs (and not just because increased consumption of greasy fast food and irrational fears of terrorist attacks have lead to the creation of more pimply teens and fat-ass homebodies, although those are definitely contributing factors). Personally, the RPG is my favorite genre, and nothing has pleased me more than to see it take root and thrive. Well, I guess overcoming that whole "uncontrollable bed-pooping" problem pleased me a little bit more. But just a little. Now that a kind of golden age of RPGs is upon us, with an average month frequently seeing the release of two or three new games, I thought it might be fun to take a look back at some of the best of the crop, games that really did the RPG formula right.

   First, though, a word about games that are NOT on this list. For starters, any game less than a year old. As much as games like Final Fantasy XII and Rogue Galaxy seem really awesome, it's hard to judge a game in this kind of context when it's so new. Then, games like The Legend of Zelda and Okami, which do feature epic quests and a degree of character stat growth, but are still primarily adventure games, not RPGs. Similarly, action games like the recent Castlevania titles, which might have RPG-like experience and equipment systems, but are still not really RPGs haven't been included either. And finally, while there is at least one strategy-RPG on this list, we opted not to include strategy-RPGs like Ogre Battle or Fire Emblem, where the strategy really takes precedence over the RPG aspects. I do love those kind of games, but they really start to breach into a different genre. What IS on this list are games released on U.S. consoles that I think really contributed something to the evolution of the genre, and as a matter of fact, all fifteen games listed here are just as much fun to play today as they were when they were released. And just for the hell of it (and also because like any good gamer, I like to cheat a little!) there are also a handful of honorable mentions. These were games we felt weren't quite up to snuff with the other entries on the list, but were important enough for one reason or another to warrant a mention.

   So let's get on with the list, then! Boo-yah!

   (Note: In a couple of places where a game and its sequel had nearly identical gameplay and were both excellent, rather than have them take up two spots I simply listed the one I thought was superior, however slightly, but discussed them both in that entry. I'm so space conscious I should defrag myself!)


15) Valkyrie Profile (Playstation, 2000)

Valkyrie Profile    Right from the get-go it's clear Valkyrie Profile isn't your typical Japanese RPG. Sure the world is going to pot and the apocalypse is nigh, but it's not the player's job to prevent it. Instead, he or she must control Lenneth Valkyrie (aptly named, since she is a valkyrie) as she flies around the world killing monsters and collecting the souls of heroes in preparation for the gods' final battle with their ancient enemies, the Vanir (basically evil gods/giants). Since the meat-and-potatoes of the game is recruiting heroic dead guys to her cause, Valkyrie spends a great deal of her time watching a series of tragic, often pointless deaths. This, needless to say, creates a pervasively bleak tone that never really alleviates. The fact that Valkyrie observes it all with an icy, dispassionate expression serves to further differentiate her from the huge-eyed, hotheaded youngsters that typically star in Japanese RPGs. And while the story is great, the gameplay is even better. Seeing as Valkyrie's job is to recruit warriors capable of fighting alongside gods, the game's dungeons really serve as training grounds for these deceased ass-whuppers. The dungeons themselves play out like levels of a side-scrolling platform game, with Valkyrie needing to make deft leaps and solve occasionally tricky puzzles to obtain treasure and reach the dungeon's boss. When you run into a monster the game switches to battle mode, which is part turn-based and part fighting-game-like action. Each of your four party members correspond to a face button, and once you've targeted a specific monster, hitting a character's button causes them to attack in a manner that depends upon their weapon. Timing character attacks so that you get a number of successful hits in a row initiates a combo, and at the end of a combo you can often utilize powerful and impressive looking finishing moves. To top it all off, the game has absolutely gorgeous 2-D visuals and an excellent soundtrack. This is a genuinely unique game all RPG fans should definitely take for a spin. If you missed it the first time around you can probably pick up the PSP port fairly cheaply, and you'll even get a couple of nice 3-D cut-scenes thrown in. Oh snap!

14) Dragon Warrior III (NES, 1992)

Dragon Warrior III    While the Dragon Warrior series (recently changed to Dragon Quest as it is known in Japan) has never sold particularly well in the States, in Japan it even outperforms Final Fantasy. Dragon Quest is so popular in the Land of the Rising Sun that all of the more recent titles have been released on the weekend due to the mass truancy of Japanese schoolchildren that occurred when they came out on weekdays. This popularity likely stems from the series' old-school appeal, as it has never abandoned early genre conventions like random encounters and very simplistic turn-based battles. In fact, if you played any of the early NES Dragon Warriors you'd likely feel immediately comfortable with any of the newer titles. Really the games are so similar that any of them could have gone on this list, but I think III embodies the spirit of the series the best. The hero is the son of a famous warrior and he leaves home in search of his missing father, taking with him three other party members that the player creates himself by picking their gender and their class. Being able to make your own team is pretty cool and fairly unusual in a Japanese RPG. Much later your team even has the option of changing their class, and through strategic leveling and class changing, you can really turn your guys into powerhouses. And what better way to show your obvious superiority over your enemies than by destroying them with your team of the hero and three jesters? The rest of the game pretty much plays out in very stereotypical Japanese RPG fashion, with your characters wandering from town to town, chatting with NPCs, fighting random encounters in dungeons, changing equipment, saving kingdoms, etc. But the great thing about the Dragon Warrior/Quest series is that it really nails what makes that formula satisfying and manages to avoid most of the missteps that other games have made. There is some serious fun to be had in these games' straightforward turn-based battles and slow, methodical gathering of items and information. And it's kind of nice to not have to learn some awkward combat mechanism or a bizarre experience system that many RPGs nowadays feel the need to throw in just to differentiate themselves from the pack. Dragon Warrior/Quest is straightforward fun, and if you haven't had a chance to play one of these yet, III is a great place to start. IV and VIII are also pretty sweet.

13) Suikoden III (Playstation 2, 2002)

Suikoden III    As you may have observed from my article on the Suikoden series, I really like Suikoden, and III is one of the best. Along with the series' trademark large-scale strategic battles and 108 recruitable heroes, Suikoden III offers a complex narrative viewable from the perspective of four different characters (five if you meet a special condition while playing through the game): Hugo, the son of the Grasslands' chief, Chris, the captain of the Zexen Knights, Geddoe, a Harmonian mercenary, and Thomas, the unlikely Lord of a backwoods, run down castle that eventually serves as the heroes' base. All-out war is brewing between the tribes of the Grasslands and the Nation of Zexen, and while an attempt at peace is brokered, it seems there are some in the shadows who desire the war to be as long and costly as possible. As the plot twists and turns like some kind of twisty, turny thing on steroids, a number of lingering issues from the previous two Suikoden titles jump to the fore, and at this game's conclusion the trilogy made up of the first three games essentially comes to a close. For any of you unfamiliar with Suikoden, the real draw of the series has always been the ability to customize your own base by recruiting the 108 Stars of Destiny, each of whom performs a different function, from opening a shop, to allowing you to play a mini-game, to fighting alongside you. Like in all Suikoden titles, even the most peripheral of the 108 Stars is given a well-developed personality, and thanks to the divided narrative more of them are involved in the plot in a significant way. This game's cast is truly spectacular. From the noble Sgt. Joe, to the lecherous Ace, to the creepy Yuber, almost every character is a memorable one. And while the previously tight battle system is a bit encumbered (you must issue commands to pairs of characters and proximity has rather unfortunately become a factor) the large-scale strategic battles are absolutely amazing, thanks to the fact that your characters actually fight at the same level they would any other battle. So for once there's a reason to level up and equip characters you wouldn't use in your regular party. If you liked any of the other games in the Suikoden series, you'll want to check this one out too.

Honorable Mention: Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance II (Playstation 2 and Xbox, 2004)

Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance   Unlike their PC brethren which are massive, sprawling epics, the Baldur's Gate console games are rather simple, Diablo-style dungeon-hacks with Dungeons & Dragons trappings. Though this shift in style might seem to be kind of a letdown to fans of the PC games, these titles are still a blast to play, especially with another person. Their quick, pick-up-and-play style makes running around dungeons, squabbling for treasure, and uniting to defeat massive bosses tons of fun, even for casual gamers. But for those who are in the mood for something a little deeper, you can certainly sink a lot of time into tinkering with equipment and developing your character's skills and abilities. Of the pair the second game is the superior one, adding more characters, more abilities, more dungeons, and an overall more satisfying quest. Though both games take significant liberties with the Dungeons & Dragons rules, the familiar faces in the bestiary and the classic Forgotten Realms setting make this a real treat for anyone who grew up playing D&D. So if you've got an RPG-loving pal, this will probably be right up your alley.

12) Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete (Playstation, 2002)

Lunar Silver Star Story Complete    Originally a Sega CD game essentially remade from the ground up for the Playstation, Lunar is a simple tale of a boy named Alex who wants to be just like his hero, Dragonmaster Dyne, and who sets off on a journey to accomplish that feat. Eventually, though, his quest becomes more about discovering the destiny of his childhood friend and unrealized love interest, Luna. Much like the Dragon Warrior games mentioned earlier on this list, Lunar adheres relatively closely to Japanese RPG staples like turn-based battles and super deformed character models, but its old-school charm is part of what makes it such a joy to play through. Probably the biggest factor in its quality, though, is the fact that Working Designs did the localization. Playing a Working Designs game, and Lunar in particular, one gets a feeling similar to the one you might get when examining a beautifully handcrafted piece of furniture. It's clear that the folks at Working Designs chose to localize Lunar: SSSC because they really loved the game, and that love shows through in every aspect of the American version. The dialogue is tight, the voice acting is extremely professional, and the packaging for the game when it was originally released was probably the best I'd ever seen for anything outside of Japan. Hell, even the songs they translated into English sounded good, and anyone who has watched anime can tell you that translating a Japanese song and singing it is usually a one-way ticket to Sucksville. None of Lunar's elements really leap out on their own, but experiencing the game as a whole really gives the feeling that its creation was a labor of love, and that love is infectious. To break it down for you, you've got a simple but engaging plot, a host of loveable characters, gameplay that's old-school in the best possible way, some of the best looking anime cut scenes in a video game ever, and a healthy dose of fan service. Is there any reason not to play this game? Only if you're dead, and even then I'm going to need a copy of the death certificate. And no, a picture of you next to the casket won't do. (Note: Lunar: SSSC's sequel, Lunar: Eternal Blue, is also a terrific game that everyone should play, but the more forgiving difficulty gives Lunar: SSSC a slight edge.)

11) Vagrant Story (Playstation, 2000)

Vagrant Story    Vagrant story is one of those games that has an absolutely rabid cult following. But even those who've played it and don't worship it like a tiny plastic idol will admit that there's something really special about it. Vagrant Story stars Ashley Riot, a Riskbreaker (i.e. a really bad-ass soldier), who has been sent on a mission to eliminate the leader of a dangerous cult and rescue the hostages the cult has taken. While he botches the job on the first attempt, he is sent to the ruins of the city of Lea Monde, the place where the remnants of the cult retreated to, to give it one more try. From here things get very, very confusing. A number of political factions have a vested interest in the outcome of the battles in Lea Monde, and soon another Riskbreaker and a host of church knights have entered the fray. Eventually the magic of Lea Monde begins to affect those in the ruins, and characters' perception and memories start to cloud. Vagrant Story likely has one of the best, most complex plots of any video game ever. It's no real surprise, though, since it was directed by Yasumi Matsuno who was also instrumental in the creation of the equally intrigue-filled Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy XII. As great as the narrative is, the gameplay is just as good, if not better. Vagrant story is basically a dungeon-crawl, with the player controlling Ashley as he wanders through the ruins of Lea Monde. When attacking an enemy, a wire sphere spreads out from Ashley, allowing him to attack anything within range. The player can target different body parts on an enemy, as some parts may be easier to hit or take more damage from a successful strike. Not only that, but by timing button presses the player can string together combos for some fairly substantive damage. Of course, the more you attack an enemy, the higher the Risk gauge goes, and the higher the Risk gauge goes, the less accurate and more vulnerable Ashley becomes. So though combat is fairly action-oriented, you can't just charge in and heedlessly hack away at foes. The other unique aspect of the game is its unbelievably deep item creation system. Many of the weapons and pieces of armor that you'll come across in the game are pretty useless, but all of them can be disassembled, and their components can be used to construct better items. And since the more you use a piece of equipment against a particular type of enemy the more effective it becomes against that type of enemy, there's a real incentive to dive into the item creation system to craft truly specialized armaments. Add in the game's somber visuals and its atmospheric music and you've got a real winner.

10) Pokémon Red/Blue (Gameboy, 1998)

Pokémon Red/Blue    Oh, I'm sure any number of you reading this list just sneered in derision at my selection of a Pokémon game, instantly dismissing the list for recommending such "kiddy" fare. Well, it's a real shame that you're too much of a big boy now to play Pokémon, because this "kiddy" series has always been a source of some of the deepest, most satisfying RPG gameplay around, and Pokémon Red and Blue were the ones that started it all. Sure, the story might be kind of fluff, but the fantastic combat system more than makes up for it. Essentially an expansion upon the elemental system found in pretty much every RPG, battles in Pokémon are much more complex games of Rock-Paper-Scissors. Each Pokémon is one or sometimes two types, and these types tend to correspond to standard RPG elements like Fire, Water, Rock, etc. Each type is strong versus several other types and weak versus a few more. Since battles are always one-on-one (although in later games in the series they are sometimes two-on-two) you need to make sure you field a Pokémon whose type is strong against your foes' type. You can have up to six characters in your party at a time, so a significant part of the game is constructing a line-up of six Pokémon whose types are balanced enough to respond to any situation. Of course, you can't just go to a recruiting station and hire some thugs to do your dirty work. You have to go catch your team yourself by wandering out into the field to encounter wild Pokémon. Any wild Pokémon can be captured and added to your team provided you knock its HP down to a critical level and tag it with a strong enough Pokéball. This basically means you've got a limitless pool of playable characters to draw from. There's a reason the Pokémon series' motto is, "Gotta catch 'em all!" Hunting down rare Pokémon can take some real sleuthing, and it sometimes even involves interacting with other real world players via trading. But the satisfaction of capturing and therefore being able to field a rare or particularly powerful Pokémon are well worth the hassle. But even if you have no intention of utilizing a particular Pokémon, the character designers at Nintendo have always done a great job of making all the Pokémon appear distinct and attractive, so you'll want to catch them just for the sake of it. If you've got a hankering for a hunk of Pokémon, Red and Blue were essentially remade for the Gameboy Advance as Fire Red and Leaf Green, and the new Diamond and Pearl are pretty terrific too.

Honorable Mention: Disgaea: Hour of Darkness (Playstation 2, 2003)

Disgaea: Hour of Darkness    While RPGs have been mainstream since the Playstation/Saturn/N64 generation, even at that time there were still any number of quirky or unusual titles the Japanese felt were too weird or hard-core to bother porting to the U.S. Of course, I say "were" because Disgaea changed all that. Unlike typical Japanese RPGs where you play as some smiling do-gooder, Disgaea stars Laharl, who is essentially the prince of Hell. Waking up from a long, long nap, he discovers his father is dead and that every demon with half-baked delusions of grandeur is fighting to become the next ruler of the Underworld. Being the rightful heir, Laharl decides to take matters into his own hands and travel around the Underworld offing the attempted usurpers with his army of murderous, knife wielding, exploding penguins. ...Yes, you heard that right. Thus begins a tale that is definitely one of the most absurd, slapstick-filled stories ever in a video game. And while the style may be goofy and off-the-wall, the gameplay is about as hard-core as it can get in a strategy RPG. Your characters can gain levels into the hundreds and eventually deal tens of thousands of HP in damage. Every piece of equipment contains a massive, randomly generated dungeon inside of it that can be ventured into and cleared to power up that piece of equipment. Battles are hugely complex affairs involving stacking characters, team combos, and explosive chain reactions caused by elemental field effects. A demonic senate can be bribed to grant your team extras like new equipment at the shop or access to new dungeons. And if you can't win them over through underhanded dealings, you can always just attack them and kill enough to put the vote in your favor. I could easily spend the entire rest of this article detailing the intricacies of Disgaea's battle and character development systems, but that would kind of be a letdown for those folks who wanted to see what the number one pick is. Suffice to say, we all owe Disgaea a debt of gratitude for its weird-ass story and gameplay paving the way for all the other weird-ass Atlus and Nippon Ichi RPGs that have hit the States since.

9) Kingdom Hearts (Playstation 2, 2002)

Kingdom Hearts   When you stop and think about it, the idea of a Disney RPG being helmed by Square Enix is incredibly bizarre. Picturing Goofy fighting it out against Cloud Strife, or seeing Donald cast Thundaga on a behemoth seems like it should upset the universe. But that's exactly what you get in the two Kingdom Hearts games, and what you get is really, really good. Kingdom Hearts begins with the young boy, Sora, who dreams of one day sailing out into the wide world with his best friends, Riku and Kairi. He gets his wish sooner than he expects, though, as wicked creatures called the Heartless consume his world and separate the three friends. Sora wakes up in a mysterious town where he encounters several characters from the Final Fantasy series as well as Disney's own Donald and Goofy. They explain how the Heartless are consuming countless worlds and that only the wielder of the Keyblade (a strange, key-shaped sword that has materialized in Sora's possession) stands a chance of stopping them. So off Sora goes, accompanied by Donald (a magic user) and Goofy (a mentally handicapped knight), to rid a number of Disney-movie-themed worlds of the Heartless while searching for his missing friends. I really can't even begin to explain how any of this holds together, but it does so masterfully. Each world the heroes visit encapsulates a different Disney film, and never does anyone or anything feel out of place. Part of this is probably due to the visuals, which manage to perfectly preserve the individual styles of all the game's characters and settings while simultaneously making everything look fairly uniform. And while the game's appearance does give it a great deal of appeal, its combat is equally engaging. Kingdom Hearts is an action-RPG in the most frenetic sense. When Heartless appear the player must dive in Keyblade swinging, with a magic-blasting Donald and a shield-smashing Goofy (or whatever other characters Sora has teamed up with) bringing up the flanks. As the game progresses and Sora learns more skills and abilities, he winds up sailing through the air performing multi-hit aerial combos, tossing his Keyblade like a massive boomerang, and generally pounding the crap out of his enemies with blinding swings of his weapon. The boss fights are particularly impressive, with massive foes like the Cerberus from Hercules, or giant Ursula from The Little Mermaid raining destruction down while tiny Sora ducks and rolls away from their attacks. The Kingdom Hearts games are truly spectacular RPGs that fans of both Square Enix and Disney should easily enjoy. While both games are excellent, the original gets a slight edge for its simpler plot and because the sequel reused a number of its settings.

8) Earthbound (SNES, 1995)

Earthbound    RPGs placed in a contemporary setting are something of a rarity. Aside from the über-dark Shin Megami Tensei series and its spin-off series, Persona, there aren't many. Well, Earthbound is one of those select few, and it takes the absolutely polar approach from Shin Megami Tensei. The story opens in 199X Eagleland (Barely concealed parody alert!) where a young boy named Ness is awakened in the middle of the night by a loud crash. He goes out to investigate and discovers that a meteorite has landed near his home. As it turns out, the meteorite is actually the vessel of a benevolent alien being who has come to warn Earth about the invasion of another, evil alien called Giygas. Lucky for him, it turns out that Ness is the one destined to stop Giygas, and the good alien is able to pass on the necessary information before he is mistaken for a dung beetle and killed by Ness's neighbor. That act pretty much sets the tone for the rest of the game. The best way to describe Earthbound is as a parody of Dragon Warrior with a goofy, sometimes infantile sense of humor. In order for Ness to be victorious against Giygas, he must visit the eight sanctuary spots around the world to gain the Earth's power, and he must also unite with three other children of destiny, the psychic young woman, Paula, the mechanically minded Jeff, and the unfortunately named martial artist, Poo. Apart from the small, suburban towns of Eagleland, the heroes also visit the large city of Fourside, the desert land of Scaraba, the impenetrable jungle of the Deep Darkness and many other exotic locals. Though the game's graphics engine is very primitive, even compared to other SNES games, its simple, cartoony designs combined with its unusual musical score really help to establish a sense of place in all its many locales. Like most RPGS, the heroes also encounter their fair share of enemies, mostly in the form of creatures controlled by the will of Giygas. I'm not sure quite what it is that makes things like flies, buffalo, and hippies particularly vulnerable to Giygas' control, but suffice to say the foes of Earthbound are varied and bizarre. Battle plays out pretty much like the turn-based ones found in Dragon Warrior, with the view being first person from the heroes' perspective. Since this isn't a standard fantasy RPG, though, it wouldn't make much sense for Ness and crew to be clad in full plate mail and swinging around broadswords. Instead, they use baseball bats, frying pans, and b.b. guns to deal damage, and protect their delicate parts with hats, arm bands, and various lucky charms. Instead of magic, Ness and his friends utilize psychic powers that function similarly. And instead of the typical potions or medicinal herbs, the heroes utilize a huge number of modern foods like hotdogs, cookies, and pizzas to heal their injuries. All in all, Earthbound is a bizarre but very satisfying RPG.

7) Final Fantasy II /IV (SNES, 1991)

Final Fantasy II    Okay, just to clarify, I'm talking about the first Final Fantasy that was released for the Super Nintendo, which is also essentially the same game released as Final Fantasy IV in the Final Fantasy Chronicles compilation for the Playstation, which is also basically the same game released as Final Fantasy IV Advance for the Gameboy Advance. Glad we got that out of the way. Anyway, despite being the first Final Fantasy to test the waters on the SNES's 16-bit hardware, Final Fantasy II was one of the best RPGs released for the platform. Starring Cecil, a dark knight who has begun to question the morality of his homeland of Baron, Final Fantasy II is a story of redemption. Soon after his quest begins, Cecil learns that Baron is being controlled by Golbez, an evil sorcerer of unknown origin. Using Baron's military might and a host of monsters, Golbez is traveling the world collecting its elemental crystals for some nefarious purpose. Together with a host of allies, Cecil seeks to discard his dark sword, take up the sword of light, and defeat Golbez before his plans come to fruition. Though any number of Final Fantasy stories could be described as, "angst ridden," Final Fantasy II has perhaps the most melancholy tale. Almost all those who come to join Cecil's party have lost something important, either physically or spiritually, and they take up arms with the knight in the hopes of finding it again. The player actually comes to care about the plight of these characters too, because they are some of the most interestingly crafted folks ever to join the cast of a Final Fantasy: the fiery old sage, Tellah, the tormented dragoon, Kain, the twin magicians, Palom and Porom, the playboy ninja prince, Edge, and many more. Each has a unique personality and plays a distinct part in the events that unfold. They also each have a particular class and a variety of special abilities they can utilize in combat. Final Fantasy II was the first Final Fantasy to utilize the Active-Time Battle engine that has been used in pretty much every numbered Final Fantasy since, and once you've experienced it you'll understand why it's hung around for so long. It takes the sometimes-tedious turn-based battles of most Japanese RPGs and really injects a sense of speed and urgency. With its great story, believable cast, and engaging battle system, Final Fantasy II is a must-play for anyone who considers themselves an RPG-aficionado. Since the Gameboy Advance adaptation offers substantive additional gameplay elements and an improved translation, I'd have to recommend it as the superior version.

Honorable Mention: Xenogears (Playstation, 1998)

Xenogears 1    Xenogears seems to be one of those games that you absolutely love or you simply can't stand. The story stars Fei Fong Wong, whose hometown is caught in the midst of a battle between the human-piloted giant robots of rival nations. And that's about as long as things stay coherent. The narrative of Xenogears is renowned for being more chock full of pseudo-religious jargon, references to German philosophy, and Freudian implications than a Neon Genesis Evangelion marathon. We're talking David Lynch-level weirdness here. In fact, an entire book was published in Japan detailing the game's back-story and explaining some of the more convoluted connections. Some players see this as the height of video game storytelling, demonstrating that games can hold their own against the likes of films and novels. Others see it as the most prominent instance of designer pretension, where a bunch of Japanese hacks thought name dropping dead philosophers and making obscure references to Jewish mysticism equated to art. Either way, the game is certainly a unique one, particularly on its second disc when the flow switches from that of a typical console RPG to a strange alteration between dungeon crawling and passively reading lengthy exposition by the game's central cast. The combat, too, is rather unusual. Party members attack by performing combos of weak, medium, and strong strikes to execute powerful Deathblow finishing moves. In many of the battles, especially those later in the game, the heroes pilot giant robots called Gears, which fight remarkably similarly to their human operators. When using a team of Gears, though, the player must also be sure to monitor fuel levels. Each of a Gear's actions consumes a certain amount of fuel, and once a Gear has exhausted its fuel supply it can no longer function. Like it or loathe it, Xenogears has unquestionably had an impact upon later console RPGs by showing the genre was capable of at least engaging more complex themes, and for that reason alone it is definitely worth a gander.

6) Paper Mario (Nintendo 64, 2001)

Paper Mario    When Nintendo and Squaresoft teamed up to turn Nintendo's heroic plumber into a genuine RPG character they created a quality RPG in the form of Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. But the Mario RPG series really hit its stride when Nintendo kicked those Square jerks to the curb and created Paper Mario. The look might be totally different, but Paper Mario is the true successor to Super Mario RPG: LotSS. In typical Mario fashion, Princess Peach has been kidnapped by Bowser, who has acquired apparent invincibility from the newfound Star Rod, and it's up to Mario to rescue her. What sets Paper Mario apart is its unique art style. Though the world is 3-D, Mario and all the other characters are 2-D sprites, thus giving them the appearance of being paper-thin. It's an interesting little gimmick, and one the game plays up a bit (although not nearly as much as later games in the series), demonstrating that it's very aware of its own absurdity. Add in the game's snappy dialogue and the generous amount of self-referential jokes and you've got a game that's genuinely funny. That playful tone goes a long way towards really making the Mushroom Kingdom feel not just alive, but also like a really fun place to spend some time. The world of Paper Mario, even more so than that of Super Mario RPG, feels like a real expansion of what was only hinted at in the old 2-D side-scrolling Mario games. It's big and packed to the brim with secrets waiting to be discovered by ingenious players. The battle system has been upgraded too, emphasizing the timing-based aspects introduced in Super Mario RPG to create a style of combat that feels uniquely suited to the Mario world. I would highly recommend any of the Mario RPGs, but I think the best of the bunch is definitely the original Paper Mario.

5) Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords (Xbox, 2004)

KOTOR II    The original Xbox wasn't exactly known for its extensive RPG library, so it makes perfect sense that it would be the platform for arguably the best two RPGs of the past console generation. Not only that, but the games were Star Wars RPGs, and history tells us the Star Wars license delivers mixed results at best. But then again, everything developer BioWare touches turns to gold, so I guess we should have seen it coming. Possessing the same open-endedness as BioWare's PC titles like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, the original Knights of the Old Republic is a brilliantly nonlinear tale of a faceless grunt in the army of the Old Republic who begins to realize his past is not what he thought it was. Filled with colorful characters like the inquisitive Mission Vao and the murderous HK-47, and featuring one of the best executed plot twists in a video game, Knights of the Old Republic delivered a classic Star Wars experience at the height of fans' despair over the abysmal new films. But as good as the game was, the sequel was even better. Sith Lords stars a Jedi exiled from the Order returning to more populated space to find that most Jedi have been eradicated by the Sith. Like its predecessor, Sith Lords features the Light Side vs. Dark Side meter that is affected by your behavior, but unlike the original's fairly black and white interpretation of morality, Sith Lords takes a much grayer view. Is helping another in need really good if it encourages dependant behavior? Is killing an innocent wrong if it leads to the accomplishment of a much greater good? Sith Lords truly encourages introspective behavior more so than any other game that I've played, and it doesn't offer any easy answers to the moral quandaries it raises. Along with this aspect, the game also introduces the influence system, whereby your actions influence the alignment of your party members. By speaking with your teammates you can gain influence with them, which in turn leads their actions to be more or less in line with your own as the game progresses. Of course, statements that gain influence with one character can cost you influence with another, so the player must carefully balance the feelings and opinions of all his party members in order to achieve harmony on his team. On top of all this good stuff, Sith Lords features the same solid battle engine from the previous KoTOR, which allows for smooth, fast combat while simultaneously providing a great degree of control over the party's actions. So if you're looking for a great RPG with classic Star Wars flavor to wash the taste of those crappy prequels out of your mouth, this is the game for you.

Honorable Mention: Fable (Xbox, 2004)

Fable    Speaking of the rare breed Xbox RPGs, the other noteworthy entrant is this sparsely populated category is, of course, Fable. The brainchild of the famed designer Peter Molyneux who tends to turn anything he touches into innovation, Fable follows the story of a nameless Hero, whose life turns upside down at a young age when bandits kill his family and burn down his village – seemingly in search of him. The boy miraculously escapes, and is rescued by an old mage who takes him to live at the Heroes Guild. Once he grows up and completes his training, the Hero goes out into the world, looking to unravel the mystery of his family’s death and seek revenge on those behind it.
   Fable brought many innovations to the RPG genre, most notably the incredibly dynamic character evolution system. Nearly every choice made by the player reflects on the Hero in very visible and tangible ways: his physique alters based on what kinds of weapons he uses, spending time in sunny areas gives him a tan, eating too much makes him fat, battle damage gives him scars, and so on. Beyond the physical, moral choices have as profound an effect: the game doesn’t force you into the path of good, and in fact often offers you quests that run the good and bad side of the same deed. Your choice determines whether it is fear or love that you will instill in other characters through the smartly designed notoriety system, and your decision will permanently open some paths of advancement, while irrevocably shutting others. The gameplay holds up equally well, despite some minor clunkiness in the control scheme, and the overall feel and theme of the game will remind veterans of such games as Betrayal at Krondor, Quest for Glory, and even the above-mentioned KOTOR when it comes to the good vs. evil aspects. While Fable didn’t quite muster up the same level impact as KOTOR, its innovations cannot be ignored by any serious RPG enthusiast, and with Fable 2 on the way, there is likely more goodness to come from this original series.

4) Chrono Trigger (SNES, 1995)

Chrono Trigger    Chrono Trigger is really one of those games where everything comes together just right to create a truly magical gaming experience. Created by a dream team of game developers from both Squaresoft and Enix (before they transformed and combined to form Mecha-Square Enix), the game is the tale of a young man named Crono who just wants to go to the fair. Through a series of mishaps, Crono and his friends are accidentally sucked through time, and after a few early adventures they discover that about one thousand years from their present day, the world will be destroyed by a monstrous creature named Lavos that has been living deep within the planet for a large chunk of Earth's history. Thus the heroes set off through time to discover when Lavos arrived on Earth and destroy him before he awakens. Since the object of the game is changing history, the heroes will visit a number of locations in various time periods ranging from dinosaur-filled prehistory to the ruined, dystopian future. Depending upon what you do in earlier time periods, events will play out differently in later ones. If you protect a forest from monsters in the middle ages, that same forest may be flourishing in the present. Leave a magical item in a spot of power in prehistory and if you return there in 2300 A.D. you'll find it all powered up and ready for use. It's a truly novel system that hasn't really been replicated in any RPG since. The game plays basically like one of the 16-bit Final Fantasy games, complete with the ATB gauge and using tonics to restore HP. However, the quirky designs of Dragon Ball Z creator Akira Toriyama give the game a more lighthearted, adventurous feel, compared to the darker, more angsty Final Fantasy. The game's battle system differentiates itself from the more static Final Fantasy format of the time as well by featuring very animated characters leaping about the screen during combat, sometimes joining together to perform powerful, visually dynamic combination techniques. Though it certainly has its darker moments, Chrono Trigger is the RPG equivalent of a really good action movie, frenetically paced and determined to deliver both excitement and fun.

Honorable Mention: Final Fantasy VII (Playstation, 1997)

Final Fantasy VII    Hoo-boy, am I going to catch hell for this one. Oh well. I hate to break it to you, kids, but Final Fantasy VII is not the greatest RPG of all time. In fact, as this list indicates, I wouldn't even rank it in the top fifteen. Its static backgrounds aren't particularly impressive, its plot about two soldiers, one who's forgotten his past and the other who wants to destroy the world, is fairly standard, its blocky 3-D graphics have aged significantly worse than those of its older 2-D brethren, and its materia-based skill system is one of the worst of any Final Fantasy, second only to the terrible Guardian Force-based one used in Final Fantasy VIII. However, what Final Fantasy VII managed to achieve in its time was monumental, and the effects are still being felt in the gaming world to this day. Before Final Fantasy VII, the cartridge based Nintendo 64 was handily beating the CD based Playstation, but VII's arrival essentially signed the death writ for the cartridge format. Yeah, the GBA and DS still use it, but that's it. Final Fantasy VII also led to the explosion in the RPG genre that we're still enjoying. Before the Playstation, console RPGs were extremely rare in the U.S. There were maybe twenty total on the SNES, and the Genesis had probably less than half that amount. Nowadays you'll get more than twenty released in just one year, and we have Final Fantasy VII to thank for it. For the time it was released its cinematic cut scenes were gorgeous, and many an action game fan simply saw the pretty and purchased. And the absolute marketing assault that took place around the game ensured that a LOT of people saw the pretty. The fact that tons of kids saw the ads and thus played the game gave a generation of gamers a taste for RPGs at a young age, ensuring they would grow up demanding more of it. So even though Final Fantasy VII is responsible for those now fifteen-year-old jackasses cluttering up message boards with "SEPHIROTH RULZ!!!", it's also responsible for us being able to play quality games like Radiata Stories and Growlanser III. If you somehow haven't managed to yet, make sure you take Final Fantasy VII for a spin in your Playstation or Playstation 2 someday. There is a half decent game in there, but even beyond that, if you're an RPG fan you owe it one. Big time.

3) Suikoden II (Playstation, 1999)

Suikoden II    If you really want to party like it's 1999, just go find yourself a copy of Suikoden II. Coming in at #3 on this list, you'd expect it to be good, but you'd be wrong. It's not good. It's %^*$ing amazing. Unlike most RPGs, Suikoden games are never about fighting some nebulous evil that threatens to end the world. Instead, they tend to focus on the more human plight of two lands in conflict and the struggles of certain individuals as they try to find their place in the world amidst the chaos. In Suikoden II those characters are the unnamed hero, his sister Nanami, and his best friend Jowy. The hero and Jowy are part of the Unicorn Brigade, a military unit in the Highlands army that consists solely of young soldiers. The Brigade soon comes under attack by what they believe are forces of the Jowston City-State, a nearby country which fought a war with the Highlands some time ago. However, it turns out that the attack was staged by the Highlands' own prince, the cruel, borderline psychotic Luca Blight (perhaps the most heinous villain in any video game ever) in order to incite an invasion of Jowston. The hero and Jowy are the only survivors, and while escaping they wind up being captured by Flik and Victor, two prominent characters from the original Suikoden who are now working for the Jowston City-State as mercenaries. Eventually the two come into possession of the two halves of the Rune of Beginning, one of the 27 True Runes that hold together the fabric of the world of Suikoden. The hero takes the Shield Rune and Jowy claims the Sword Rune, thus ensuring the two are forever destined to be in conflict. Sure enough, Jowy soon returns to the Highlands and he and the hero spend the rest of the game reluctantly fighting against one another. This game's plot is truly fantastic. Not only are there plenty of twists and turns to keep the player on his toes, but it also features a massive cast of superbly developed characters. One thing Suikoden has always done better than any other series is make its villains genuinely sympathetic, and II does it the best. The player truly has the feeling throughout the game that, if not for the whims of destiny, those he is fighting against could just as easily have been his allies. Well, except for Luca Blight, of course. He's an utterly unrepentant bastard. This game possesses all the other classic hallmarks of the Suikoden series as well: massive strategic battles, a castle the player can build up by recruiting characters and finding certain items, the ability to import data from the previous game to unlock cool bonuses, and a silky-smooth battle engine that makes even the frequent random encounters fun. I don't think it's really possible for me to recommend this game enough, so I'll say simply that if you like RPGs you should play this game.

2) Final Fantasy Tactics (Playstation, 1998)

Final Fantasy Tactics    Final Fantasy Tactics is and likely always will be the mac-daddy of console strategy-RPGs. Set in Ivalice (the same land as Final Fantasy XII), the story starts en medias res, with a squad of soldiers attacking a church to kidnap the princess inside while another squad fights to repel them. After the battle, the young mercenary Ramza Beoulve has a flashback to when he was just a naďve cadet at a military academy for the children of nobility. The Fifty Year War his home country of Ivalice had fought against its neighbor, Ordalia, was just coming to a close, but tension was increasing due to the failing health of the sickly king. Since neither the king's infant son nor his adopted daughter could rule alone, the two nobles closest to the throne had begun to consolidate their power. Thus begins the struggle of Ramza and his best friend, Delita, as they are swept up in all manner of plot and intrigue. The two are soon pulled apart as tragedy leads Delita down a dark path and Ramza makes the discovery that shadowy powers within the Glabados Church are manipulating the war for sinister purposes. Since the game was headed up by the same Yasumi Matsuno who later worked on Vagrant Story, the narrative is top-notch, filled to the brim with shifting loyalties, moral ambiguity, and dramatic revelations. Even a translation that occasionally bordered on incoherent can't obscure the quality plot. But once again, as good as the story is, it's the unparalleled gameplay that puts Final Fantasy Tactics near the top of this list. While Tactics' battles are fairly standard isometric, turn-based strategy game fare, Tactics has hands down the best implementation of Final Fantasy's Job Class System (previously used in Final Fantasy V and the original Famicom Final Fantasy III). Players can choose from twenty classic Final Fantasy jobs (not counting unique jobs) to assign their units, and units can switch jobs at any time provided they've earned enough Job Levels to unlock the others. They can also learn and equip any of hundreds of abilities to give them access to various skills, defensive techniques, movement bonuses, and more. You can easily lose yourself for hours teaching your characters new skills and abilities and then tweaking their setup in a vain effort to create the perfect unit. It's incredibly addictive, and even after nine years I haven't grown bored with it. Throw in all the side quests, the unique characters, the secrets, and the gorgeous soundtrack and you've got the second best console RPG of all time. The first being...

1) Final Fantasy III/VI (SNES, 1994)

Final Fantasy III    What makes a game the greatest console RPG of all time? Is it an excellent story? Is it a unique cast of endearing characters? Is it stylish graphics and an atmospheric soundtrack? How about highly engaging gameplay? Well, it doesn't matter what you answered, because Final Fantasy III has them all. The game opens a thousand years after a great war left an unnamed world bereft of magic. In the ensuing millennium humanity slowly recovered and now exists in a steampunk-ish state. While the world is essentially at peace, a great empire has risen up, conquering numerous other countries and oppressing their people, all the while searching for remnants of the great beasts that fought in that ancient war. The setup might not be particularly original, but the execution is completely unparalleled. As mentioned in our review of the recent Gameboy Advance port of FFIII, the game has no real main character. You'll start out playing as the amnesiac magic user, Terra, but soon you'll be jumping into the shoes of a host of different folks: the gallant thief, Locke, the mechanically inclined but lecherous young king, Edgar, and his noble martial artist brother, Sabin, the melancholy knight, Celes, the playful moogle, Mog, and many more. The game's cast of playable characters is the biggest of any of the numbered Final Fantasy games, and though some might get a bit more screen time than others, FFIII does a great job of making each character feel unique and fully developed. Each hero has a very specific role to play in the complex tale that unfolds. And though the story is short by modern standards, it packs a great deal of punch into its relatively brief run time. That, in a nutshell, is the real glory of Final Fantasy III. It's just so full of quality content! You're constantly doing something new and exciting, whether it's riding a rickety raft down a river rife with rapids, stealing the clothes from soldiers to slowly orchestrate an escape from an occupied city, or even performing in an opera to lure out a prospective kidnapper. While things always adhere to the same basic gameplay formula, the game always shifts the specifics a bit so the player is forced to consider things from different perspectives. Since you've got such a large team at your disposal, you'll often be forced to divide the heroes up into several parties to either tandem-assault a particularly complex dungeon or to protect a target from attacking enemy troops. The fighting itself is based off of the same ATB system found in most other Final Fantasy games, so it's fun and very accessible to any seasoned RPG fan. Final Fantasy III is definitely one of the best looking games that came out for the SNES too. Final Fantasy III All the backgrounds are intricately detailed and painted with lots of somber earth tones, thus giving VI's world a sturdy, lived-in feel. The character sprites, though of the stubby, SNES variety, are surprisingly expressive, with enough animations to fit any occasion. And all the action is perfectly complemented by what may well be composer Nobuo Uemetsu's masterwork. Final Fantasy III is one of those special games that breeds nostalgic feelings as soon as you turn it on. It really must be experienced by anyone who considers himself an RPG-lover. While you can play it in its original SNES format, you can also play it as Final Fantasy VI in Final Fantasy Anthologies for the Playstation. This version has a gorgeous CGI opening and closing, but also a little bit of slowdown during battles and when selecting the menu. It's also available as Final Fantasy VI Advance for the Gameboy Advance, complete with several new spells and a bonus dungeon but burdened by a stripped-down soundtrack. Each version has pros and cons, but since the basic game is the same, play whichever format works best for you.



   And there it is, the list of the greatest fifteen RPGs to appear on God's green Earth. Then again, there are plenty of other really great games out there just waiting for someone to champion their cause. Think I'm a fool for neglecting the genius that is Dragon View? Can't believe I had the gall to leave Thousand Arms off the list? Want to bludgeon me about the head and neck for completely ignoring Albert Odyssey? Well, lucky for you we've got a charming little comment form down below where you can call me all kinds of horrible names and positively tear my opinions to shreds. Because what would the internet really be without jerks cussing each other out over things that don't really matter? Just porn, that's what. Now get to it.

Mike Zeller




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(244 Comments, click to add yours)


On Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 04:13 PM lol said:

wow, this is better be a joke.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 04:18 PM jay said:

Obviously no one will ever agree on a list of the best anything, but I can accept many of these titles being on the list, specifically Chrono Trigger, Tactics and FFVI being very high up there.

I do have to complain that there are no Sega RPGs, though. Shining Force, Panzer Dragoon Saga, and the Phantasy Star series are all quality and it surprises me that not one of those games made it onto the list.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 09:24 PM Brad said:

Oh Mike, I'll be the first to call you out for only making FF VII an honorable mention, it's the game that got me to play RPGs and as you said, heavily influenced the next several generations of RPGs. I'm also surprised there was no mention of the Elder Scrolls series at all, sad omission. However, overall a good list, but of course I can't just agree with you, that wouldn't be any fun now would it? :)

On Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 11:04 PM Jack said:

without any zelda games like ocarina of time or majora's mask, or the original super marios, this list is pathetic.  revise this 2 include actual good games, the only good 1s on here r fable and pokemon

On Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 11:04 PM k said:

dude.....i think this is possibly the WORST top console rpg list i've come across.  Have you even played most these games?  I dont even know how you can consider Vagrant story an RPG....what little plot it did have was spread out so far between the mind numbing hacking and slashing that I actually FORGOT what the story was about half way through.  ugggg....you couldn't even properly add ff7 to the list.  Knowing how much it has done for the genre it should get more than an honorable mention......seriously.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 11:08 PM Billy said:

No Zelda?


On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:07 AM Max said:

Zelda is not included because it's primarily an action-adventure game, not an RPG.  To say nothing of the original Super Mario...

I did absolutely love FF7, it was one of the first serious RPGs for me, and I recall being totally awed by the depth of story and character development in that game.  Then again, I've only played 2 other FF games, and they weren't FFII/IV or FFIII/VI, so I can't really compare.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 11:23 AM A. Tari said:

This list stinks because DragonStomper is not on it.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 11:36 AM Max said:

DragonStomper, eh?  I confess, I had to look that one up ;)  I guess if I had to come up with an official "this is why we didn't include it" reason, I'd go with "we decided to have a firm cutoff at games released before the birth of Christ..."   ;)

P.S. clever handle :)

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 12:07 PM asdf said:

This list is great. Everyone is always putting FF7 or zelda at the top of RPG lists, missing the points made here. Nice to see someone get it right for a change.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 12:44 PM alex said:

good list for the most part. im not sure how people think the super marios are rpgs at all...but thats beyond the point. i was a little bummed to see kingdom hearts at only a 9 spot, but alas. there it is. interesting choice on putting tactics above chrono trigger, but i guess the strategy rpg needs to be represented and tactics is undoubtedly the godfather of the field.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 12:45 PM tr said:

This was a very good list - although I thought Xenogears should have actually been on there; I think that people who think that "a bunch of Japanese hacks thought name dropping dead philosophers and making obscure references to Jewish mysticism" should reevaluate the game. Or is that what I should do?


Haha, your opinion on FF7 is not far from mine. Most people don't understnd that although you criticize their prized possession, you're not saying that it's necessarily a bad game, but rather a highly overrated decent one.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 12:53 PM Will said:

Disagree about the FFVII Materia system. I found it by far the most interesting system of the FF's I played (through 10). The ability to get creative with linked slots and all of the non-spell materia (counter-attacks, defend+counter combos, mp-drain combos) as well as constantly having to pick between trade-offs of more materia slots vs a weapon with better stats got me to feel a lot more active in building my characters than in the others. I never understood why FFTactics was so popular. The combat setup lacks the depth of the old tactical D&D PC games (ala Pools of Radiance). And if you stumble upon the cheap way to boost your strength and make some monks then you end up with characters that always act first, can move across the whole map, and insta-kill most everything before any other class characters can act. Too easy = no fun.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 12:54 PM Mustafa said:

Great list, you really put the ones that sucked away the hours from school up there. I actually liked the materia system...ALOT! Thought it was super innovative, it's actually my favorite system out of any RPG, but, I'm not going to make any virtual enemies because of it. Guardian forces did suck, that whole drawing out magic system pissed me off. What's the point of using magic to fortify your characters? It made me NEVER want to use it!!!!!

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 12:56 PM Cell4130 said:

FFVII?
Ocarina of Time?

This list is very flawed. Those games are often in the top ten games of all time of ANY genre ANY platform.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:03 PM fred said:

wtf, where is secret of mana?!?

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:06 PM Nei said:

OMG. You don't even have Phantasy Star, Phantasy Star 2, or Zelda on here. Do I need to mention Shining In The Darkness? *sigh* Pokemon? Give me a break. Those are weak RPGs at the best.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:12 PM kirk said:

where the hell is final fantasy 7?????

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:14 PM Matt said:

I am so glad to see Final Fantasy 2 and 3 (4 and 6) get some credit for a change. FFVII was a good game but not the best in the series by far. The only thing revolutionary about it was it's graphics and those haven't aged well. If it truly is your favorite then great but if you haven't played the snes three I strongly recommend you play 4,5 and 6 (on the original system if possible). After that play 7 again and ask yourself if it really was a step up.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:19 PM Cab said:

I'm sorry, FF7 sucks.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:21 PM quithnik said:

If tactics is the godfather of strategy RPGs then what the hell is Shining Force. No one has made a tactics game as good as Shining Force yet, not even close. And this list is crap. Shining in the Darkness was probably the worst game in the Shining series. good god who wrote this list and what the hell is wrong with them?

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:27 PM Crested Booka said:

Would people please quit mentioning Zeldas, all adventure/puzzle/action games, for this RPG list? This is one of the best thought out lists ive seen. Although to put down FFVII's materia system on the basis that later games had more advanced versions is a bit silly, since of course they would improve on the original that was somewhat groundbreaking (I would argue that the espers from 6 made way for materia...) Very happy to see EB make the list on 8 for all the reasons you stated (my favorite game of all time), and was a bit sad but understanding of Xenogears place as an honorable mention. Nice work.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:29 PM nei said:

Shining in the Darkness is not he worst game in the series. The story was fantastic and the game was awesome. Shining force was good but Tactical RPGs are not true RPGs in my opinion. Anyhow, this list is crazy whacked.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:40 PM Adam said:

I hate how everyone thinks that FFVII deserves to be on the list. The honerable mention is fine. In -no way- is FF7 the best. Albiet, it may be the most popular. The story is lacking, along with the other important factors.

Overall, the list is good. ^.^

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:43 PM mike said:

Um your list Sucks.  One word ?Pokemon?  except the Final Fantasy's they of course are "legendary" are placed correctly.  Good call with Suikoden II but III is even better and only in Japan.  But really Secret of Mana and FF3/6 changed RPG's.  Which is why SNES is the best console ever.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:48 PM quithnik said:

as my brother so aptly put it: "walk down hallways, kill monsters."  and there you have it, Shining in the Darkness.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:52 PM Mel said:

Wow only one game that didn't appear on a Nintendo or Sony system. What a great list, clearly you have tons of experience in playing RPGs. Not a single Sega platform, TurboGrafx or any other system game made the list. This can't possibly be because of the lack of experience of whoever authored this     right? 

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:54 PM david said:

you suck. and i hope you explode. FFVII BEST GAME EVER. 

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 12:25 PM Kate said:

I've played a lot of these, but somehow not number one! I'm going and buying it today, mhmm. On the other hand, kinda depressed that my favorite rpg of all time wasn't on here, Golden Sun...Good list nonetheless.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 01:59 PM Jibbajaba said:

These days people like to leave FFVII off of lists like that to be 'edgy' and 'subversive'.  It's sort of indie-cool to think that FF VII isn't that great of a game.  The other games you mentioned there are all great, but FF VII deserves a spot among them for all it did for the genre.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:03 PM Matt said:

It always amuses me that when people who say FFVII is the best rpg ever are asked why they always seem to come up a blank. It's either that or Sephiroth rules or because of it's story or some other vague answer. I hate to break it to you guys but it may be that it was the first rpg you ever played and your a little bit biased.

Also Kefka kicks Sephiroths ass.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:05 PM Meyithi said:

KOTOR II?  The one that had the ending missing and was rush released?

Pales in comparison to KOTOR in all aspects.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:10 PM somedude said:

You and this list are made completly of Fail and AIDS.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:10 PM AuhsojSivart said:

I agree with your list, almost entirely. However much I enjoyed the first Kingdom Hearts, I'm not sure if it would really count as an RPG if Zelda does not. I'm not really a fan of Zelda and would not put it on this list, but I don't know if Kingdom Hearts belongs due to it being more of an action-adventure game like Castlevania or Zelda than an RPG like Dragon Warrior or FFT.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:14 PM Ria said:

As someone who cites Final Fantasy VII as their favorite video game of all time, I wanted to kindly remind people about all the things that gave it the near legendary status it has now.

*Amazingly intricate yet mature plot.  It starts off small, with a mercenary just getting his wages.  Then it’s a war to save a city from pollution.  Then it’s a war to stop a madman.  Then it’s a war to save the planet.  The plot was strong enough to warrant many spin off games and even a movie, Advent Children.  
*Interesting cast of characters.  They were all young adults, for the most part, each with their own distinctive personalities.  Every single character had a highly detailed and fascinating back story, to the point where you earnestly cared about them and probably cried at the end of disc 1 (perhaps the first time you ever cried over a video game?).  Even Caith Sith seemed pretty cool once you figured out who was controlling him.  
*Accessible battle system.  The 3-D battles were revolutionary, and it was exciting to see the camera zoom around as you fought enemies that had actual depth.  ATB made the battles more fun and urgent.  Limit breaks were always exciting and satisfying (Omnislash, anyone?), and learning a new one was even better.  And as for the materia, it was basic enough to learn very quickly, but the sky was the limit by deciding what characters would have what spells, boosts, and bonuses. 
*Simplified equipment schemes.  You didn't have a weapon, 5 pieces of armor, and 3 accessories; it was 1 weapon, 1 bangle, and 1 accessory.  Simple.  You could focus on other things instead of micromanaging your armor.
*Gorgeous soundtrack.  Nobuo's best work to date.  Each character had a distinctive theme, and just a few notes of any FFVII song will bring you back to a certain screen or event in the game.
*Addictive side quests/mini games.  Don't feel like saving the world?  Go to the Golden Saucer.  Raise a green/blue/black/golden chocobo.  Get the triple growth materia weapons or the ultimate weapons.  Get the huge materia.  Recruit Yuffie or Vincent.  Fight the WEAPONS.  Find the hidden materias.  The list goes on and on.
*A plethora of secrets.  Do you know how to get Aeris’s final limit?  The W-item materia is?  How to earn the Force Stealer after your performance in Rufus’s parade?  Or have you finagled a date with Tifa, Yuffie, or even Barrett instead of Aeris at the Golden Saucer?


On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:14 PM YurMama said:

I agree with most of these, but yeah, KotOR II?  While it started out as a much-improved KotOR I, it sprialed into unfinished nonsense in the third act.  Most subplots were abandoned without resolution, the final maps were noticably unfinished, and the ending was basicaly not there.  KotOR deserves a spot on this list, KotOR II was an insult.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:14 PM sd said:

where the hell was Xenogears? N00b

EPIC FAIL

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:14 PM Valheru said:

You missed Y's book I & II (1990) for the Turbo Grafx 16 CD / Turbo Grafx Duo.

Most people have probably never played or even heard of it, but it was a critically acclaimed rpg and one of the few reasons to even consider purchasing the cd-rom addon for the turbo grafx 16.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:19 PM Josh Valentine said:

Awsome, someone finally agrees with me FF6 is the best RPG ever

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:22 PM dwall said:

wow.. kill yourself, final fantasy 7 not a top 15 game? wake up man.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:27 PM wtf said:

What no xenogears?  What was one of the best PS2 games out there,  besides FF7 of course.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:33 PM Steve said:

The fact that pokemon is on this list makes it shit to me.  No respect for you buddy.


On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:36 PM your mom said:

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On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:36 PM anon said:

For shame. Final Fantasy VII does not deserve to be on this list at all. This list may be your opinion, but it does not change the fact that all of the characters in Final Fantasy VII were lifeless, insipid cliches.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:39 PM HolyFrickingcrapMartha said:

Well written blog and definitely agree that Zelda, Okami, Mario, etc. Should not be on the list (Although I have them all and REALLY love them) They are primarily action games and shouldn't be classified with the true "context" RPG's we have known to love. Zelda defined the Action/Adventure category and is a class of its own.

Anyhow.

However, I dont agree with many of the games on here.

Im surprised you allowed Dark Alliance II and KOTOR II precedence over the first installments of that series which were far better in almost every conceiveable way. Given that the latter two have their innovations and good qualities, they just don't compare to how flawlessy the first two games were executed, be it story or gameplay.

Im a big fan of the Suikoden series, but I dont agree that Suikoden III should be on there (honorable mention, yes). The game was very bland and lacked the feel of the Suikoden II (which definitely deserves it's title). Not to mention the fact that the game was so damn repetitious in terms of locales, spells, armor, weapons etc. I felt like I was looking at a different character, but was playing the same thing the entire game. The other games in all honesty shouldnt even receive passing mention. :S

 As for Vagrant story, im not going to get into that game too much. Great look, good concept. Really poorly executed game, I never finished it because, like "K" said above, I forgot the storyline halfway through because of cliche' and boring the game became. Furthermore, although the battle system was a nice change from the norm, it just became troublesome rather than, well, fun to play.

Going back to Dark Alliance. Very immersing and fun hack and slash, but I must say that the original Champions of Norrath was a lot more fun and an improvement over the original Baldurs Gate franchise. Im no Sony Fanboy (in fact right now, im not impressed with them at all) but they did do something right when they made that game. (Given that DA's menu system and voice acting were very high quality.)

Given the games that you have played on here, I was hoping to see that a game from the Shadow Hearts series would make an appearance. A innovative battle system and a mature rating on an RPG is hard to come by. Not to mention the Zany characters and outlandish storyline they were a great change from the serious mentality that most RPG games encompass.

Once again, even though I don't agree with some of your choices on here, your writing, research, knowledge and insight were great and and made for a very interesting read.

Games I would like to see on a list of "Top RPGS or Action RPGS"
Shadow Hearts
Chrono Cross
Shadow of the Colossus
Okami
Dragon Quest VIII
Jade Empire****
Odin Sphere


On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:40 PM Holyfrickingcrapmartha said:

If anyone wants to email me its linkinroad_x@hotmail.com

You know, for flaming purposes or game related chat.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:43 PM Katsu said:

I don't think the author really understands the concept of honarable mentions.  Honorable mentions should be saved for those that didn't quite make the cut of the top 15 at all (i.e. those ranked 16 and higher)

There should *not* be honorable mentions per rank.  That doesn't make any sense.  Wouldn't a honorable mention for rank 4 be better than whatever is actually in rank 5?  If not, surely it would be better than whatever is ranked 15!  So while FF7 is an 'honorable mention' for rank 4, it's ostensbily not in the top 15 at all, which would clearly invalidate any top 15 console RPG list.  FF7 *must* be in there, though I wouldn't put it in as #1.

I do wholeheartedly agree that FF6 is the best console RPG of all time, though. :)

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:47 PM Some Dude said:

Good list, glad to see that FF7 wasn't on it.  That game is way too overrated.  But, what about the phantasy star games, or panzer dragoon saga?  

Anyway, overall good list.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:49 PM RISC said:

... Well... i quite agree... but you forgot "Vandal Hearts", as a Honorable Mention, side to side with FFT. That game was released way before FFT... it hasn't those good graphics, but the game system is similar ( but turn based, instead of ATB)... and the story, it's incredibly good.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 02:55 PM Paul said:

Phantasy Star IV should have a place on that list, easily makes the top 10. Also, Lunar for the SegaCD was *far* superior. It should have made the list, and the PSX version should be an "honorable mention" at best.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:03 PM Adam said:

Dead on, you're obviously a purveyor of the finer arts of the RPG. My only tweaks are: FF7 is an honorable mention, fine. But its materia system was very accessible and fun. Xenogears was essentially re-made in Xenosaga, I think they're both crap, but Saga might have been the way to go, between the two. Kudos on Putting FFIII/VI at the number one spot!! The whole world needs to play that game and learn about a GOOD plot in a game again.
Kupo! Kupo! 

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:07 PM Touchy said:

Three words:

LEGEND OF DRAGOON.

Sorry, if you don't agree with me, you don't agree with me. But, it was, in my opinion one of the best RPGs I've ever played.

I agree with a good bit of the list, however. LSSS is a great game, and it does have some of the best anime cut scenes I've seen in any game.

And, of course, like most, I have to ask why FF7 isn't a top game. It did a lot for RPGs, and the story pulled you in, really, to the point where some people actually grew to care about the characters. I can't cite another game that brought me to the point of tears.



On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:25 PM JauneSnow said:

WOW, this is one of the most asenine lists I have ever seen... Suikoden 3, really?

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:25 PM kevin m said:


putting ff6 at no.1 makes you by far the coolest and smartest rpg fan around .

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:28 PM Brad said:

I agree that FF6 was the best RPG I've ever played however I think the first Breath of Fire should atleast be somewhere low on the list.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:28 PM Tachy said:

Where is morrowind?  How could that not have made this list.  What a crappy list.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:34 PM Jack said:

This list is worthless without Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne. Best console RPG of all times on all levels save for the plot.

It especially has an amazing atmosphere, even legendary moody games like Half-Life aren't as immersive as it.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:34 PM RAM said:

Final Fantasy III/VI is EASILY the greatest RPG ever made, hands down.  Everyone that touts FFVII never even knew what an RPG was when FFIII?VI came out.  The only close rival to its dominant 1 position is Chrono Trigger.  Those two games are heads and shoulders above anythign else ever made.  That doesn't mean there weren't really good RPGs besides these, just that these two are that dominant.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:36 PM RAM said:

Secret of Mana definitely desevres to be on this list.  Breath of Fire maybe an honorable mention.  

Oh and Zelda IS NOT a trie RPG.  They are phenomenal games, but not true RPGs.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:39 PM wtf said:

Wow, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance II gets "honorable mention." but not the classic Baldur's Gate II for PC? GTFO ------->

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:40 PM Nick said:

Ridiculous list.  No Phantasy Star?  No Shining Force?  Bullshit.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:44 PM Ruse said:

I like the list for the most part too, good call on FF6 being the best final fantasy ever.  Final Fantasy 7 did bring a lot of good things to the genre as you said; but it also brought a lot of negatives.  Such as: Too many emo heroes, too many cutscenes edging the game closer to a movie,  faux "maturity" - zomg barret cusses!,  Square becoming greedy and milking things to death, etc etc.   Plus a good portion of the people it brought in are the legion of retards that drool at the mention of its name and clog up message boards and MMOs with their dumbass screennames to this day. 

I also wouldn't have included FFT on this list - as really it's in a seperate genre that doesn't share much beyond superficial similarities to rpgs.  And if you include strategy rpgs - you have a whole nother mound of games to add like the fire emblems and ogre battles and whatnot. 


On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:45 PM Master Rex said:



On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:46 PM MasterRex said:

 ______ ______ ______ 
|  ____|  ____|____  |
| |__  | |__      / / 
|  __| |  __|    / /  
| |    | |      / /   
|_|    |_|     /_/  


NEVER FORGET FF7 WHEN MAKING A LIST OF THE BEST FUCKING RPGS.


Also, you didn't mention WoW. Nor Oblivion.


FF:Tactics + KOTOR should not have made the list.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:47 PM Pink said:

Impressed with the list, a little sad that golden sun wasn't mentioned but I guess it wasnt really inovative enough. As for FF7 I completely agree. As an RPG it was pretty basic and the materia system sucked. And the story "group of kids, one with amnisia save the world" has been done before. People have to understand just because a game is theyre favorite dosent make ht the best. Hell smash bros melee is my favorite game, doesnt make it the best game ever.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:48 PM Pink said:

Impressed with the list, a little sad that golden sun wasn't mentioned but I guess it wasnt really inovative enough. As for FF7 I completely agree. As an RPG it was pretty basic and the materia system sucked. And the story "group of kids, one with amnisia save the world" has been done before. People have to understand just because a game is theyre favorite dosent make ht the best. Hell smash bros melee is my favorite game, doesnt make it the best game ever.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:52 PM Daniel said:

I think this is a pretty good list. The only game I think this list failed to mention was Secret of Mana/Seiken Densetsu, the first multiplayer action RPG, and a damned beautiful game.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:55 PM Anton said:

HMMM, well i am going to say that FF7 was not the greates RPG on my opinion, but you cant argue that it is the most loved and famouse one. And if you are talking old rpgs, then you totaly forgot to even mention Fallout. 

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:56 PM medeste said:

just one game: sword of vermilion

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:58 PM David said:

"On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:40 PM Nick said:

Ridiculous list.  No Phantasy Star?  No Shining Force?  Bullshit."

"On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:28 PM Tachy said: Where is morrowind?  How could that not have made this list.  What a crappy list."

"On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 03:39 PM wtf said: Wow, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance II gets "honorable mention." but not the classic Baldur's Gate II for PC? GTFO ------->"

QFT



On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:02 PM John said:

Obviously someone has never heard of RPGs on the PC. You might have missed some of the all time classics, such as Fallout 1 and 2 and the whole Elder Scrolls Series. You might ask yourself, are you really a fan of RPGs or of console systems? 

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:09 PM Kiz said:

Clearly the author only included games that he played, and he's obviously never played KOTOR 1 or Oblivion.

It's ironic that your intro specifically states that you are listing games that have made a contribution to the advancement of the genre, and then every game you list has the typical leveling system where you gain xp by killing 100 sewer rats.

He also seemed to skip over every Zelda game because they are "action games". What exactly do you consider an RPG then Perhaps the title of this list should read "Top 15 Console RPG Plot Lines of all time, for typical, standard, non-inventive games"


On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:17 PM Ryan Rector said:



On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:19 PM poopies said:

Decent list... however,

Final Fantasy 7 should really be in the top 3. That game is absolutely flawless in every aspect. The story is incredible


On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:20 PM Jason said:

Your list was going alright. Until you chose KOTOR II over the original. Obsidian's game was total shit compared to KOTOR.
 It was the same game, only it was easier and you started out as a Jedi!

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:22 PM Christopher said:

All of you FF7 peeps protecting the game like it was your own mother, just know that FF3/6 is your true, biological mother, and FFTactics is your true father.  

Sit down and get to know them, they have much to teach you.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:22 PM Ryan said:

A very good list.  FF2 & FF3 are the greatest Rpgs to date.  I really wish I could pick up a good RPG like those on xbox 360.  Although, as other people mentioned, you need to check out Shining Force 1 and 2, definately worthy of making it on the list.  Its better that FF Tactics.


On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:24 PM ryan said:

Good catch Daniel, forgot about Secret of Mana, that was an excellent one.


On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:28 PM You suck said:



On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:28 PM lol @ this list said:

What a joke ff7= 2nd best rpg behind Chrono Trigger

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:36 PM Dave said:

I cannot believe you would dis the system of final fantasy VIII, I'll agree the GF's weren't the best idea, but the stat junctioning system, along with the magic draw system were simply amazing. All in all, a slightly better game than FFVII. Should've been in the honorable mentions.

Otherwise, w00t FFT getting the recognition it deserves.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:52 PM clondike7 said:

There are a few I agree with, others I can't comment because I havent played. Besides what everyone else has already said, FF7 needs to be on this list, as does FF9 (my favorite FF, also Hironobu Sakaguchi's favorite).
But there is a serious abscence here: LEGEND OF DRAGOON!

One of the biggest 'sleeper hits' ever in RPGs. There is not a single gamer I have given this game to that doesn't get hooked on it.

This list is a good try, but seriously incomplete.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:57 PM random smart person said:

this is a perfect list.

i agree wholeheartedly with your picks, ESPECIALLY the leaving out of FF VII. it is a decent RPG, but for us hardcore RPG people, it just doesn't cut it!

i understand how nostalgic people feel if that game was the introduction to their RPG obsession, but that alone doesn't warrant a top game.

Lunar= amazing game.

well done!

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 04:58 PM drew said:

thank you for choosing FFT as #2, but its painfully sad that the remake is for PSP and not DS :'(

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 05:30 PM Ben said:

dude you're so original, totally breaking the mold by not including ff7. get raped.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 06:02 PM rpg fan said:

little known megadrive game,buck rogers????

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 06:04 PM RPG FAN said:

O B L I  V I O N???? ES

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 06:20 PM NES, Esq said:

I love your list :P Though I must ask, where's Terranigma? That was like, the crown jewel of Enix o.o

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 06:23 PM tyler said:

Oblivion, totally, and what about DIABLO II!
That game fucking rules. Anyone who disagrees can fuck themselves.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 07:03 PM Proibito said:

David wrote: but not the classic Baldur's Gate II for PC?

John wrote: Obviously someone has never heard of RPGs on the PC.

You guys did notice that the title of this article is "Top 15 Console RPGs of All Time", right?



On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 07:19 PM Benny said:

I could complain about a lot of things on this list, but, it's your opinion and I respect that. However, as a RPG gamer myself, I still rank FFVII up there, right near the top. It's the way it's written off as a rather average title, without any real reason, I dislike.

 Even worse is the list is then cluttered with games like KH and Pokemon. Both were successful more for external reasons then their own. KH sold on its Disney and SE partnership, I bet nobody would've liked it as much had the two worlds joined.

Also, Fable getting an honourable mention? It's a massively overhyped game which hid a sadly simple game mechanic underneath. It's claims were nothing like the game itself.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 07:30 PM Twylight said:

To those that denounce this list: Fuck you.
This list is the work of one person and probably doesn't reflect the views of the majority of people, and if it does, those that denounce it have horrible taste in games. I personally have played very few of the games on this list, but I know better than to insult the list's creator because I didn't enjoy some of his favorite games. You people are pathetic.

And to the list's creator: Well formatted list, excellent use of images, not cluttered and easy to read. Bravo.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 07:38 PM Jester said:

The main thing that's wrong with this list is the title.  As a list of the top 15 console RPGs, it's ridiculously wrong as other people have already pointed out.  Just to list two obvious examples: KOTOR II instead of KOTOR?  No mention of ES3: Morrowind or ES4: Oblivion?

On the other hand, as a list of "15 console RPGs that tried new concepts", it's pretty good, though it still should have included Morrowind and its completely open-ended world.  That seems to be mostly what this article is about: console RPGs that pushed the envelope in various ways.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 08:08 PM dizmo said:

What the hell is wrong with you???

FFVII not even in the top 15?

 Good god man....

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 08:35 PM Craig said:

I pretty much agree with most of the list, especially "FFIII/FFVI" as number one (Mainly for the SNES nostalgia factor). However, I would agree that there were a few omissions from the list. Good call on Daniel's part with the "Secret of Mana/Seiken Densetsu" series, but what about "Breath of Fire" and "Lufia" (even as honorable mentions). I'm obviously I'm a little Bias to the SNES titles, haha.  All in all a good list tho.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 09:14 PM cme said:

For the love of Science, break things up into paragraphs!  Your reviews were excellently written, but almost impossible to read without going crosseyed.  Paragraphs are your friend!

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 09:40 PM tim said:

I'm another one that applauds FF III/IV on the top of the list. I also have to say I agree with FFVII only getting an honorable mention, it was a good game just not that good. Some other minor problems that have been mentioned before(KOTOR II and Suidoken III) but other than that great list

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 10:11 PM Player1 said:

How can you say Final Fantasy 7 and Fable are honerable mentions? All the games you put on here are mediocre exept for PokeMon you should never make a countdown ever again.


On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 10:45 PM SadFooSign said:

Not a bad list, but where is Wild Arms, the first one before it got all weird, it still gives me shivers to think about him being a robot, I man really A ROBOT, ok maybe i'm not that bad, but it did rock.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 11:03 PM Soulmoon said:

 Decent list. Not perfect, by my standards, by a decent list. Then again, this is all subjective.

 My biggest suggestions would have been dropping Paper Mario for Skies of Arcadia, but I'll freely admit that I have a week spot for Skies of Arcadia, given that it was the best console RPG for the Dreamcast (Long live the Dreamcast). I suppose reviewed objectively it wasn't exactly a groundbreaking game.

 I also wouldn't have included Pokemon. Yes yes, a lot of people hate the game for being successful, and for the kiddies that flock to it, and whatever. That's not it, though. It's just, not really, a roleplaying game. The "Story" such as it is is cookie cutter at best, unchanging in any appreciable way from game to game. Pokemon is a tactics and strategy game, and as such it's perfectly acceptable, but it is not, in my opinion, a roleplaying game.

 To the (Baldur's Gate, Oblivion, Morrowind) people. Morrowind and Oblivion are ports (Ok, strictly speaking, they were developed simultaneously, but the franchise started out on the PC)... I can't say I really think it's fair to include them on a "console RPG" list. Which isn't to say they aren't great games, I enjoy them both... Although honestly, Oblivion's graphics are spectacular, but as a game its something of a dud to most Elder Scrolls fans, so take that for what it's worth.

 For that matter, the whole term "Console RPG" has connotations behind it beyond simply being "RPG on a console". There are specific memes that you expect to find in something called a "Console RPG", as opposed to whatever you care to call, say Oblivion.

 The above is why I'm perfectly fine with Fable not making the list - while it's an RPG that came out on a console, it is not a "console RPG" stylistically.

 Which brings us to Final Fantasy VII. I'm not saying it's a bad game, it's not - but what is really spectacular about it? What did it do that hadn't been done before in other Final Fantasy games, and other console RPGs in general? Nothing. The story isn't even, truthfully, that original. It gets applause for being one of (The first?) 3D console RPGs, and it's the first Final Fantasy that a lot of America played. There's no denying it has a huge following. There's no denying it is very "cool", in the most banal sense of the word. But for the (if I may be excused the conceit) console RPG connoisseurs, the console RPG grognards, it never had as much impact.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 11:20 PM Lex said:

FFVII only gets an honorable mention?  No shining force?  You guys are lame.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 11:24 PM Glen S Schmidt said:

Soulmoon said...

"...Which brings us to Final Fantasy VII. I'm not saying it's a bad game, it's not - but what is really spectacular about it? What did it do that hadn't been done before in other Final Fantasy games..."

Are you serious?  You don't remember the motorcycle part, or the death of Aeris?  The Chocobo breeding, or any of that?  You really think the story wasn't original?  I don't think you actually played it dude.  Yoy're full of it.


On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 11:42 PM blarg said:

why the fuck is vagrant story even in the list?  its wasnt revolutionary in any sense and can hardly even be considered an RPG.  did you list it simply because it has a cult following?  the game play is repetative and has little to do with the actual story.  theres nothing special about it.....games of this kind have literally been done to death.  did you even play this game?  or did you just copy what all the little cult followers where saying? 

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 11:50 PM Soulmoon said:

 Ah yes. Now I remember why I never bother posting in comments sections. The old "If you don't think the way I do, you are (insert one or more) stupid/high/ignorant/talking out your arse/etc.

 The "Motorcycle part". Yay minigames? Seriously. I don't play RPGs for motorcycle racing. Fun as it may have been, it wasn't my cup of tea, and not what I want in a roleplaying game. Similarly, I dispise many other gimics the more recent Final Fantasies have tried to throw at the player, such as underwater soccer. The motorcycle bit was unobtrusive, as such things go, but more than I cared for.

 Same with chocobo breeding. It was a tedious semi-optional minigame to eat time. It wasn't part of the story, it wasn't even "important" in any canon sense - it just was. If you enjoyed it, great, spectacular - but honestly, again, it wasn't what I'm after in an RPG. It's just more obsessive-compulsive grinding to make the game "longer", as far as I'm concerned.

 Aeris death. Cool scene. And I only mean that in the half-banal sense of the word "cool". But one scene does not a "Best of" game make. Honestly I didn't even consider the Aeris scene the best in the game. And it's not like her character - ancient race, hidden powers, sacrificial, yadda yadda - are unique, either within FF or console RPGs in general.

 Like I said. It's not a bad game. But it is not - to the minds of, at least, this long-time veteran of console RPGs - a landmark game beyond the technological sense. But fine. You're right. It did something other Final Fantasies before it hadn't done - it made kosher the notion of filling console RPGs with pointless minigames and non-rpg stuff to fill space. Before that, we had only had to deal with trivial crap like the fishing minigame in FFVI - which had a signifigant impact on one character's story, I might add. Don't expect me to praise it for that, though.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 11:59 PM Exodus said:

Ummmm the person who listed the reasons why ff7 was win..

Go and play FFIII(US) please thanks.
FFIII/FFVI is my favourite rpg of all time.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 12:21 AM youreallysuckman said:

Final Fantasy 7 getting an honorable mention makes this the worst list in worst list history.

PS

you suck

PSS

Final Fantasy 7 owns the ground you walk on

PSSS

you suck

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 12:23 AM youreallysuckman said:

Oh ya, I forgot to say that

YOU SUCK

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 12:34 AM RG said:

Having played all FF games since FF2 (4 in JP), I can confirm that FFIII(US) is by far the best one... I still remember the story clearly and I long for it... I really liked the FF2(US) storyline as well (even better than FF7's)...

Im 28 and I can see that the problem with many kids bashing for FF7 no being #1 is that they probably were still pooping their asses when some of us where already fighting Kefka... they never had the chance to try the previous, cartridge-based, FF games, so they think FF7 is the only panacea.... it was a good game, but not as good as the previous 2 (US-realeased) FF games.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 12:54 AM Dirg said:

Screw this FF7 whining bullshit. No Shin Megami Tensei games makes this a non-list. There isn't a FF game made that can hold a candle to a MegaTen game.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 01:46 AM bobdole said:

One of the weakest top ten lists I've seen.  Sure it's his opinion.  But some opinions are just plain wrong.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 02:27 AM Cura said:

Most of those games is complete shit.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 02:41 AM Kefka said:

Finally someone sees the glory that is Kefka.  Sephiroth is a whiny bitch.  I'm so angsty I just want to destroy the world.  Kefka was evil because it was fun.

Hope, Love, Dreams.... these things I will destroy....

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 03:38 AM dio said:

You nerds are funny people.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 04:05 AM Brian said:

I have played RPG's on consoles for a long time. The first game that I couldn't wait to play when i get home from school was FFII. It continued on to FFIII. These two games are definitely the best in the FF series and have well deserved spaces on this list. I played FFVII, I even completed it. It didn't compare ... It's a good game, but it is not better, just flashier than the SNES games.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 04:21 AM omgnozelda? said:

Props for having balls and busting FFVII down to an honorable mention. FFVI is truly the best FF game. Only a couple of problems: 1. I'm sorry but in no way is KH better than KH2. KH2 had better combat, a more interesting story (I can see how simplicity can be a virtue, but in this case I'm gonna say you're wrong), and much cooler settings/Disney movies. 2. Earthbound and Chrono Trigger should be higher. That is to say, Chrono Trigger should be #1 and Earthbound should be in the top 5.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 04:34 AM Keef said:

No Crono Cross?  Grandia 1?  And fanboys aside, no Final Fantasy 7 = your opinion is pretty much forfeit with anyone thoroughly familiar with the RPG genre.  No offense.


On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 06:21 AM Nifara said:

I think it's interesting how Final Fantasy VII splits so many gamers when considering the series as a whole.  I know many people who argue that VI is by far the best, but VII holds a special position in my heart.

When I first played Final Fantasy VII (way back in the day) I was thoroughly entertained by the story and the gameplay and spent days unlocking every tiny aspect of the game, trying to get all the characters to level 99.  I though that it was brilliant and that this was why - the obsessive compulsive gaming which it generated in so many people was clearly the reason why it should be ranked so high.

I recently went and played it again for the first time in roughly four years and I was absolutely astonished at my feelings towards it.  Levelling was a chore, battles continuously irritated me, I had no wish to unlock limit breaks or get unique items.  In fact, the gameplay struck me as tedious and incredibly unenjoyable.  But suddenly I was struck by the absolute brilliance of the story, plot, and characterisation (not to mention the fantastic music).

Though, as many people have rightly pointed out, the characters are for the most part cliches, the way in which they are used is anything but cliche.  Cloud plays the part of the reluctant hero with a vague past to the book, but the twists and turns of the plot keep him from becoming irritating.  The identity crisis which he suffers, along with the horrible realisation at his own nature, is a suprising and mature plot twist.  Sephiroth (apart from being "oh so cool") is a tragic figure, and his fall from grace during the first major flashback of the game is both touching and awful.  Confronted with his own appalling nature, the knowledge literally drives him mad before something altogether more alien and unplesant begins to take hold of his mind.

It seems extraordinary that anyone with a genuine appreciation for storytelling would describe FFVII as anything but brilliant.

(Oh, yeah.  KOTOR2?  Why?  A dull intro, confused plot, and entirely missing ending all contributed to a game that was massively subpar when compared to its stunning predecessor)

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 06:52 AM Korinthian said:

You lose.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 07:58 AM Soulmoon said:

Except for the legions of us out there who are "thoroughly familiar with the RPG genre", from the days of the original NES, and yet still don't think FF7 was some sort of wunderkind of RPGdom. Anyone who includes FF7 on a "top ten" style RPG list I generally assume is either a newcommer to the genre or catering to the legions of rabid fanboys (and fanbois, and fangirls, thank you, Sephiroth...) who do exactly what is being done here... go into attack mode at the thought that someone might disagree with them, as if their opinion is cosmic, immutable fact.

And Nifra, you say that it's hard to believe anyone who appreciates good storytelling wouldn't be amazed by FF7, and you cite the tragic villian and the reluctant hero and stuff... but these aren't new concepts. As you point out, they are cliches. You say FF7 gives them new twists, but honestly it really doesn't... FF had been giving those concepts twists for a long time now.

Although I will agree with you (And several others) that KOTOR > KOTOR2. I have a problem in that I basically hate Starwars (Thank you, Lucas, for episodes 1-3, and destroying my childhood), but KOTOR was fun even still.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 08:43 AM Andrea said:

Where's Shadow Hearts 1 and 2 (not played 3 yet)...

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 09:31 AM Vitoke said:

Agree with the number one. FFVI is so special, its magical. Just looking to one pic of the game makes me feel lots of things. So full of misteries, so full of secrets, best story ever, best characters ever... best game ever.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 10:47 AM yonderboy said:

So you include KOTOR2 but not KOTOR?  No Elder Scrolls game at all?

You auto-lose.  Are you wearing your +7 to cookie-cutter turn-based JRPG boots or something?  Someone needs to get a clue, and play some games.


On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 11:44 AM Chronoblivion said:

Some interesting games I haven't played on this list, and may look into. I laughed at all the "ZOMG WHY ISN'T ZELDA ON TEH LIST!?!?" comments. So many people consider Zelda games to be RPG's, but, believe it or not, having an epic storyline is not the only qualifier for being an RPG.

With regards to some of your justifications, I would have done a number of things differently, but perhaps that's because I'm a different kind of gamer. The three things I look for in an RPG is 1) Epic storyline, 2) Epic characters, and 3) Epic powergaming. Powergaming is of particular significance; I want to go above and beyond what is expected of the player, and have my characters be complete badasses. For these reasons, games like Disgaea,  FFVII, FFVIII, and FFX would make the top of my list. I want to go beyond level 99; I want to be able to spend hours farming stat-boosting items.

FFVI would easily make a list of my top 15, but it would come nowhere near #1 on the list. I loved the characters and it had a good storyline, but I felt it didn't give enough of an in-depth background of all the characters.

I can't definitively say which would make #1 for me, but with regard to FFVII, it would definitely be in my top 5. One of the most common arguments I see used against it is it's outdated graphics, yet you put DWIII, a NES game, on the list. Graphics are never an accurate judge of the quality of gameplay. As far as gameplay is concerned, it's fairly average. I loved the materia system, but combat was typically just mashing the attack button. It's characters and story, however, are all about as epic as they can be, though the story is perhaps a little too epic. It's confusing and hard to follow, though on a personal level I enjoyed that aspect of it. I had to play through a second time to try to understand it, like unlocking a puzzle, and when I did I felt a sense of accomplishment. No matter how many times I've played it, or how many other great games I have on my menu, I always find myself wanting to come back to FFVII. Hate (or in your case, more of a refuse to love) all you want, but I believe you're in the minority here.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 12:11 PM silchan said:

To everyone who is complaining about a lack of Elder Scrolls: No non-console RPGs made the list because this is a console list.  It's rather aparant.  So shut the hell up.

To everyone who thinkgs FFVII is the god of gaming: Try playing a game that doesn't end with every character having the same ultra abilities.  People in real life are unique.  They have unique skills (Ala FFIV).  They don't all become clones of one another in skill and ability and only look different.  The same could be said of FFVI but to a lesser extent.  FFVII should have been called Clone Wars.

I agree Secret of mana should have made the list, perhaps in place of vagrant story.  Vagrant story really was more zelda like in that it was action/adventure moreso.  It was closer to parasite eve though>.> Which should have gotten an honourable mention, but I digress.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 02:51 PM Jordan Lund said:

First off, Elder Scrolls IS available on multiple consoles. Morrowind is on the Xbox (playable on the 360) and Oblivion is on the 360 and PS3.

Second, the list completely ignores the Phantasy Star Series. No list of the best console RPGs is complete without AT LEAST Phantasy Star 1 and 2. To add insult to injury they have even been re-released fairly recently so there's no excuse to have not played them.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 03:04 PM Adnan! said:


POKEMON RULES IT SHOULD BE ON HERE BUT WHAT BOUT ZELDA OH WELL ATLEAST POKEMON IS HERE AND FFX NO WAY FFX HSOULD BE ON HERE AH WELL AWESOME LIST CUZ OF POKEMON!!!

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 04:02 PM kirk said:

I have never before encountered someone else who honestly rates FFIII as the best rpg of all time. The only problem I have with the list is that not only is Star Ocean 2 not number 2 on the list, but it isn't even mentioned. This game's cooking, crafting, and random non-combat-related or moderately-combat-related skills that you actually have to train up through use, but without taking away from the rest of the game, while still being in the style of the classic rpg, should push it way up on the list. The rest of the game rivals any other on the list, in terms of story, scope, lasting graphics and music, unique/engaging/fun gameplay, openness, etc.

But for FFIII... it just feels wrong to leave out a few more things:

The heinous but hilarious ingenuity of the primary villain, Kefka, is one of the strongest sources of support for FFIII's position. He is about as bad as you can make a character and still have him be believable. He makes mistakes and cruel jokes and yet is still powerful enough to be the driving force behind much of the conflict in the game.

Another key reason the game takes the lead is the uniqueness of the characters, which you mentioned, but left some important things out of: the distinct abilities of each character are carried out perfectly. They don't just have different limit breaks or something like that, where the same system applies to each character; each ability works completely differently and has different effects. Edgar's tools are selected from a menu and just used in a straightforward manner, Sabin's blitzes require a combination of arrowpad presses almost like in a fighter game, Relm's artistic ability -- dependent in part on the paintbrush she wields -- replicates enemies on the spot, Gau learns the techniques of his opponents and uses them later, Cyan lies in wait, gathering energy until he can unleash it all in a staggering blade-art move, etc. There are even passive abilities, like Shadow calling his dog, and abilities that enhance other abilities or magic use, like Terra's transform.

In narrative fiction, the best stories tend to be those whose characters you care about. FFIII makes you care about ALL of its characters, even the ones that aren't playable. You even care about Kefka, not in a sympathetic way, necessarily, but you want to know what he'll do and what'll happen to him in the end. And the enemies in the game are usually unique. Sure, there are later-game enemies who are differently-colored versions of early enemies, but they come with different abilities and difficulties, and since the environment they're in often affects how they must be fought (and the environment changes radically and often), they usually can be considered as completely different enemies altogether. Scaled-up versions of early monsters tend to bug me, but that is never a problem in FFIII.

I know the quality of the music in a game is probably subjective, but the variety of feelings and the lack of the feel of a midi in Uematsu's compositions in this game is breathtaking. I write music on my computer, and much of my stuff is hugely influenced by this soundtrack. You're so right about the nostalgic feelings invoked by it.

Anyhow, kudos on supporting your choices for each slot. Couldn't really argue with a point you made.


On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 04:15 PM john dubois said:

Thank you for putting Final Fantasy VI at No.1 .


-from a life long RPG player

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 04:57 PM nathan said:

I guess I feel sad that Golden Sun isn't on the list, but I'll get over it.

People. People. Shut up about the fucking FFVII. It wasn't the greatest RPG of all time. If you can't see that, then you don't deserve to even play them. I challenge you all to play the other games and compare. If after that you still think that FFVII is amazing, you may have your opinion, but maybe you can look at other games, and your precious VII in a more objective light.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 05:22 PM some guy said:

No way was FF7 better than FF6. People just have nostalgia about it, because it was their first rpg ever. I'd rate any of the final fantasies that came before it as superior games for their time.

Just having Kefka automatically makes FF6 a better game. Sephiroth was a bitch compared to him

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 06:01 PM kshwizz said:

Wow this list is based clearly on the taste of the person who wrote it, obviously an opinion. Now some of these games i compltely agree on, FFIII/VI FFT etc. but others like Suikoden III... i'm just not going to go there. I kinda agree with the Kingdom hearts, but wth is Xenogears, despite the hours we all spent reading, that game was one of the most original concepts in a long while. Anyway this is just an opinion but alot of those titles deserve to be honorable mentions instead of actually being on the list. I think you may have got the list swapped somehow. I dunno... All arguments aside, good job on the list.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 06:45 PM Chronoblivion said:

There seems to be a big debate between FFVI and FFVII. The way I see it, which side of the argument you're on more often than not depends on age. Nostalgia plays a huge role in determining a person's favorite games. FFVI was a great game, and for people who had been playing RPG's for a while, it seemed revolutionary. I loved the characters in VI, and it had a good storyline. However, younger gamers like myself have often gotten used to the more complex modern games. The RPG that got me hooked on the genre was FFVIII, and I later got hooked on VII. It wasn't until after finishing these games that I ever got around to playing VI. By comparison, the characters in VI seem to lack substance. You're given their background, their motivation, and in most cases 1 dynamic change. Like I said, I love the characters, but compared to more modern games, which I'm more used to, their storylines seem too brief. Too many characters, combined with limited cartridge space, made it hard to become as solidly attached to the characters as people usually are for later FF games. At the end of VI I found myself wanting to know more about the characters, knowing that all of their potential hadn't been exhausted yet. Also, the lack of a solid main character had both positives and negatives. For me, it made the game feel a little disoriented.

While I don't worship VII, I do consider it to be one of the best I've ever played. I'll admit that some of this may be due to nostalgia, but not completely, since it wasn't my first. While the characters are a little less original than some of the characters in VI, they end up being fleshed out more, and their personalities evolve more. It slowly adds more pieces to the puzzle until eventually you feel like these could almost be real people. They go through various struggles and hardships (notice the plural) and learn from them. Having played both more than once, I feel more attached to the characters of VII, because there is much more time spent developing each of them.

The TLDR summary: With regard to FFVI and FFVII, older gamers, typically due to nostalgia, remember VI as the greatest game of all time because, during it's time, it could easily contend for that title. Younger gamers, such as myself, often view VI as a little outdated and simple. VII, by comparison, seems to have more detailed and complex characters and plot. Perhaps older gamers like to keep things simple, but because I'm used to more complex modern games, VI, despite all it's greatness, could never reach quite as high on the list as VII for me.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 08:18 PM Kyrue said:

While I respect your opinion, this list is exactly that; Your opinion. What makes it really off the wall is that you included Final Fantasy 7 as an honorable mention, and gave it recognition of paving the way for console RPGs yet did not include it on the list. FF 7, whether you liked it or not changed console gaming. It at least deserves to be on the list simply for what it did for the industry.


On a side note, how can you not like the materia system? It allowed for so many different ways to play the game, making each users experience unique. FF7 is not my favorite RPG, but the elements it had are among the best.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 08:41 PM Matt said:

yeh your fuckin stupid to just give ff7 a HM. It should have #1 or at least 2 Next to FF3

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 08:56 PM Capt. Fresh said:

This list is utter crap, and you should hate yourself for writing it. The Top Five Consoles RPGS are Sudeki, Enchanted Arms, Arcana, Super Mario RPG, and my original creation on RPG Maker 3 that I haven't quite finished yet and probably never will, but if I ever did it would be totally sweet and kick more ass than B.A. Baracus eating a flaming skull. Number's 6-15? They don't exist, because RPGs suck and so do you, "Mike Zeller." I swear to god, if I ever find out where you live I will drive to your house and totally throw your cat(s) out a window.

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 10:18 PM Anon said:

Bull. Shit.

How in gods name was Earthbound not AT LEAST in the top 3? Scuse me, but have you ever even fuckin played that game? Its a gift from god himself! A hell of a lot better than anything Final Fantasy cooked up.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 12:07 AM Cleux said:

I, like many others disagree with FF7's not being on the top 15, but I'm not going to whine and moan about it like 3 year old.
But if you are going to do something drastic like declare the top fifteen console RPGs of ALL TIME, you'd better be pretty sure they ARE the top fifteen. Although each is entitled to his or her own oppinion, you probably shouldn't say what are the best ever based on your assement alone.

So I can somewhat you peoples' disagreements, you gotta come up with something better than:
"This list is utter crap, and you should hate yourself for writing it. The Top Five Consoles RPGS are Sudeki, Enchanted Arms, Arcana, Super Mario RPG, and my original creation on RPG Maker 3 that I haven't quite finished yet and probably never will, but if I ever did it would be totally sweet..." And he goes on like that for a while.

That's a laugh... If you are going to declare a home-made RPG to be among the five best in HISTORY, you'd better be more than damned sure, you'd better be God. Because no dumb kid amature single, mortal man can create a greater game than most of what is listed hear.

As a "What I think the best fifteen RPGs are" list, it's fine. I don't care. To each his oppinion and all that. But don't go and mix up oppinions and facts.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 04:37 AM Invader Phlegm said:

This article really should be called, "The 15 Best Playstation and Nintendo RPGs of All Time," as outside of a few that is all this list really is, a list of Playstation-era RPGs, with a few Nintendo classics thrown in so as not to appear too shallow.

Looking at the list, it is quite obvious that Mike probably never owned any console other than the NES, the SNES and then the Playstations. And I guess honestly, if I only owned those systems, I'd have made a similar list. For example, anyone who has ever played them are intimately familiar that the original Lunar series was better than the remakes. The remakes are nice in that they update the graphics and add some extra, mostly superfluous story and tons of new animated cutscenes, but the heart of the game was always better on the SegaCD version - but then you would have to have owned a SegaCD and played the originals to know that.

Some of the games on the list, simply do not deserve to be on a "best of" list of all time, and there are plenty others that are not here that belong here in thier place. But I guess all of this is alright as this list is only the opinion of one person. Of course to call his list the definitive "best of" list is more than a bit egocentric on Mike's part, when in actuality, it should simply have been called "Mike's Top 15 Favorite List." But then a name like "Mike's Top 15 Favorite List," does not generate readers and hits and get Dugg and make it's way unto N4G. Which ultimately what this list is all about - hence the over pretencious title. If you, or anyone, really want a list of the best console RPGs of all time, then it would help just to get a bunch of gamers in a room (maybe 100 or so will do), who have had experience playing every console dating back until at least the NES/SMS-era, and let these blokes hack it out until they collectively filter through and come to an agreement on what a true list of the best of the best RPGs of all time should look like. Will it be perfect? I doubt it. But it will be a fair sight more accurate than Mike's list here. And the best part is, especially if you are a younger gamer who has either not been around long enough, or if you are a game who has not had the fiscal resources to own every console over the past several generations and thus able to play all the RPGs on the consoles you did not own, a real best of list should open up your horizons a bit and give you incentive to run out and snag one of the true masterpieces that you may have missed - a list of "required playing" as it were. One person's opinion of what the best RPGs of all time are, can simply never offer that. All it can do is offer the world of role-playing games through the eyes of the one person, and in 99% of the cases, that is always not a very broad horizon.


Peace and Love and keep up the happy gaming, to one and all.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 06:45 AM Grubb said:

Dear Mike Zeller,

You have no idea how greatful I am that you not only put Final Fantasy 3(6) at the top of your list where is belongs, but you stuffed Final Fantasy 7 in the honorable mention pile (Where it belongs at best.)

I want to thank you for standing up to the throng of mindless drones who think that game is so awesome simply because it was the first RPG experince.

Did you know that there's even a Chicago Family that named their new born son "Sepheroth?" You have no idea how much pain and anguish this knowledge has caused me. Just knowing that people out there are so obessed with that they would name their child that makes my soul bleed.

But you have given me the most important gift I could have ever reseived. You sir, have given me hope. Perhaps there is Hope for humanity after all.

Thank you Mr. Zeller, thank you for being fundamentally better than the common rabble.


P.S. For Final Fantasy 7 Fanboys who are undoubtable going to flame this post long after I've made it. Please note that I don't "HATE" Final Fantasy 7. I thought it was "Pretty Good." I just think that it's... litterally and without sarcasm ...the most overrated game of all time.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 07:34 AM Sirch Noslen said:

I have a question since apparently the only reason people assume that FFVII is good is because it was the first RPG they played should I assume that the origional Dragon Warrior was good?  Because even though it was the first RPG I really played all the way through I pretty much think it sucks.  I was a big fan of the snes and all of the RPG's that came out on it, as a matter of fact to this day my favorites are still Breath of Fire, 7th Saga, and Breath of Fire 2.  I played all of the origionall FF games when they came out in the states.  And while I have a special place in my heart for each of them especially the first, there has been no game in my collection that I have gone back to more often than FFVII.  I have currently played through the game 7 times.  Only three of which I just did the bare essentials on the other four times spent upwards of 100 hours making sure that I completed every side mission and getting all the limits and weapons.  It was by far the most engrossing.  But as far as that goes my second most played FF game was FFVI I have played through it probably 4 times now and even though I enjoy it alot it pales in comparison.  

Oh wait I forgot where this post was going Dragon Warrior for the NES was the greatest RPG ever!!

Sometimes you people just make me laugh.        

On Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 12:00 PM kunjac said:

you are an idiot!!!!

On Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 02:27 PM nitro360 said:

In response to capt. fresh and anyone else who might agree... Don't even SUGGEST that enchanted arms be on any "TOP" list, that game was the biggest piece of shit ever made, why else do you think it debuted on the ps3 for $19.99, and received nothing more than an "average/fair" rating on just about all reviews of it?

In response also to the seemingly highly controversial FF7 honorable mention- I'd just like to point out that all you "ELITE" RPGers claiming that people who say FF7 should at least make the list are just nostalgic about their 1st rpg should maybe consider that YOU are the nostalgic one. That a good RPG is one that doesn't include any innovative features, or minigames, or unrelated side quests. That a good RPG is one that follows the same set of boring game mechanics from the early eras of gaming, anything "non-traditional" thrown into an RPG automaticly degrades it stature against the great "classics".

The truth is with more advanced systems, developers are able to add features they may have had to leave out in earlier systems, features that add more depth and sense of truly having freedoms to do whatever you want in your "virtual world" (eg. raising chocobos, minigames etc...). Sorry to rant like that, but someone had to point this out...


On Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 04:44 PM Jess said:

secret of mana? zelda? ......lol

On Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 05:27 PM Kiz said:

On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 12:11 PM silchan said:

"To everyone who is complaining about a lack of Elder Scrolls: No non-console RPGs made the list because this is a console list.  It's rather aparant.  So shut the hell up."


You fucking tard. http://www.fraggerock.com/images/gaming/microsoft_xbox360/oblivion_360_box.jpg



On Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 09:08 PM jordanlund said:

For those looking for a better list... here's mine off the top of my head...

Best RPGs in history by series (ranking individual entries in the series is pointless and takes too much time.)

1) Ultima (III, IV and V are the best RPGs ever done.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima

2) Bard's Tale (I, II and III)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bard%27s_Tale_%281985%29

3) SSI Gold Box (Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Secret of the Silver Blades)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Box

4) Wasteland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasteland_%28computer_game%29

5) Phantasy Star

6) Suikoden

7) Elder Scrolls

8) Final Fantasy

9) Knights of the Old Republic
 
10)  Fable

11) Jade Empire

12) Mana (Secrets of... Children of...)

13) Golden Sun

14) Breath of Fire

15) Y's

On Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 11:03 PM Josh said:

This list wins hard.  Complainers and nay-sayers can't seem to take the list into context of gaming at large - though I would contend that Vagrant Story doesn't really belong, and could make way for something a little more genre-defining.

Among the notable points of awesomeness that is this list:
*FF3 > FF7 in about ten million ways
*Earthbound, Crono Trigger, and Suikoden II make appearances, as well they should.
*It's nice to see FFTactics get the respect it deserves.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 11:28 PM Jazzdonkey said:

Persona? That IMO was a great game.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 12:11 AM Tucan Jam said:

No Phantom Blade?

Disgaea should have gotten more than an honorable mention. Other than that, good-o. Very thought out.


On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 07:10 AM Pink said:

Super Mario RPG!!!

On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 11:57 AM 10Zen said:


Kingdom Hearts isn't even an rpg. It's a platformer with some rpg elements sprinkled in. Just because Square calls it an rpg, doesn't make it so. That itself is laughable. By that standard Deus Ex is more rpg than KH ever will be. Dragon Warrior III was a poor attempt at the western rpg standard. It has value as fas as nostalgia but that's about it. It's trendy to downplay FF7 and the fact that the author goes out of his way to pat himself on the back for hating it makes the list that less respectable. Not to mention the fanboyism with Star Wars and Bioware.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 05:42 PM huh?? said:

You guessed right, you are going to get flak for putting FF7 in the "honarable mention" category.  Are you honestly bringing up the quality of backdrops and the aging characteristics when you are making a list of the best RPGs ever?  Seriously, if you don't FF7, at least come up with something better than this when comparing it to NES games.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 06:17 PM Random Forest said:



On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 07:17 PM classicRPG said:

Capt. Fresh - take your Paxil and go to your room

This is a decent list, but there are definitely some games left out, and some that are out of order.  I would put FFIII/VI and FFII/IV at the top of the list (personally, I like II/IV better, but we are splitting hairs at that point).

Secret of Mana definitely should have been on this list as well as Phantasy Star IV and Shining Force.

Final Fantasy Tactics?  Right off the list, no honorable mention, nothing.  The Shining Force and Ogre Battle games were much better.

KOTOR?  Gone.

All the arguing about FFVII?  It definitely belongs in the top 10.  You can hate on it all you want, but it was the biggest turning point in the history of console RPGs.

MarioRPG for the SNES should replace Paper Mario.  Sorry, but that's how it is.

Two games that definitely should have been mentionted were Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior.  Without these two games, there would not even be a console RPG genre.  Top ten, easy.

And why does everyone bash FFVIII?  It was a great game, with a great (and somewhat unique) plot.

Thanks for the list and the insights, though.  I haven't played any of these games for years.  Methinks it is time to dust off the old SNES and Genesis and visit my roots.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 10:04 PM AlainD said:

I feel the age and nostalgia indeed play a big role when making such a list, case in point here FFVII vs FFVI/III:

FFIII was my first console RPG indeed (but I had played tons of computer RPGs already: Ultimas, Wizardry, SSI Gold box series...) and it totally floored me.
Its main strength in my view is the unbridled variety and creativity it oozes: the opera scene (simple "karaoke" mixed with a timed mini-dungeon), the many group battles (characters are split into groups and moved on an overall battle map, you have to balance each group, of course, but also move your groups to defend a position, very intense), the SPOILER unexpected and surprisingly dark "second world" END SPOILER...
I could go on and on there, but let me add one thing, depite its variety, the game retained incredible consistency (no "thrown in" mini-games, everything blended in the whole), and this, with the arguably fabulous music (the three themes of the three-stage final battle still resonates in my mind) makes it a masterpiece. Number one indeed (for consoles, won't compare merits with PC wonders like Fallout, Ultima IV... too complicated ;)

As for FFVII, I must admit I never played it (only a PC demo), because the 3D graphics didn't appeal to me (3D was in its infancy) and I disliked the battle system (character not different enough + the limit break feature). Though I don't view it as an exceptional game, its influence in spreading the Console RPG love can not be dismissed, it's a real landmark (not best RPG ever, but certainly, most influential in the US).

Long live the Console RPG (^_^)

On Tue, Sep 25, 2007, 11:49 AM Chris said:

I have no read all the comments thouroughly, but should Shemnue not get some sort of a mention, honourable or otherwise??

Good list though. Controversial and brave omitting FF7, I don't agree but understand your reasoning.


On Tue, Sep 25, 2007, 02:46 PM Dave said:

yeah, like many people said before me, where´s FFVII, Golden Sun or Dragon Quest ???

On Tue, Sep 25, 2007, 03:50 PM ReVeReND said:

too bad any number of PC RPGs from as far back as the early 80's could put all but the VERY best of these games to _shame_ hands down.  le sigh...  so, i don't know man, there's some REALLY cheesy looking stuff on here, but i've never tried any of this modern Nintendo wierdness (Paper Mario, Kingdom Hearts, Pokemon) so can't say for sure that they suck as much as they look (well, Pokemon can't be THAT bad...)  but the lack of "Phantasy Star II" is quite a tragedy, as has been mentioned by others already.  i have a LOT of trouble believing that many of these are actually better than that classic, even with it's somewhat cheesy-looking battle scenes.  "Bahamut Lagoon" is also probably on par at least with many of these, though that was never translated.  "Tactics" i think was a pretty poor choice, especially without some of these other greats.  i had a great time playing tactics, but it was INCREDIBLY short and LINEAR...  i was just getting into the swing of building up my characters when whooops, game over!  i didn't even get a chance to try half of the wierder classes.  having been playing RPGs on consoles and PC for 10+ years at that point, i was not impressed, though it was certainly fun and pretty.  and BTW, this comment form seems to have some kind of problem with Firefox.  shame on you.P


On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 01:52 PM Geeves00 said:

While I can agree on FF III being #1 (as it always ranks there on my list) I have to disagree with not including FFVII. While it definitely shouldn't be #1 it should at least make the top 15. I started the FF series when the FF1 came out for Nintendo. I played and beat every one of them (including the gameboy ones).

The reason FFVII has such a rabid fan base is because at the time of its release the average gamer didn't really get into RPGs. FFVII changed all that with an incredible storyline, a new kind of Battle/Magic, great Music and (at the time) incredible graphics.  

You say the story was pretty standard? How so?

You seem content to be able to sum it up in one sentence but even that sentence is wrong. One former soldier may be out to destroy the world but the other one fogetting his memories hardly even comes close to summing this story up. The story is more than just one person out to destroy the world and a few trying to save it. Go back and play it again and actually read the dialogue... It had one of the best FF storylines.

The materia system while a little annoying is hardly the worst system out there. But again, at the time it was new and unique.

The game is huge and there is so much you can do. Leaving it off of ANY all time-RPG list is either just a huge mistake or will make you out to be a complete fool.

And Starwars!? An RPG?

FF Tactics (great game BTW) while does have some RPG elements is more of a strategy game. And Fable (while not on the list but mentioned) would have to fall under the same category you decided to place Zelda if you're going to classify that as purely adventure.

And how the &$@% did Paper Mario break the top 30 let alone the top 10.....

Many of the games on there do belong and for good reason. But some of the blatant oversights and some of the more rediculous insertions make this list garbage.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 01:59 PM Tim said:

CT = 1
FF is shit.

What gook made this pos list.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 02:21 PM Nick said:

No mention of Fallout or Fallout 2? Your list sucks.


On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 02:39 PM David said:

Paper Mario is as much an RPG as Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, and SotN is one of (if not) the best hybrid platform/rpg's ever and many people will agree.  Paper Mario has nothing on that.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 03:03 PM Ben said:

Poor poor list. Has alot of "good" ones, but meh.....

#1. No Phantasy Stars at all - WTF? PS2 should of made the list, easy.

#2. Only a crappy KOTOR2 made the list for any WRPGs. Where's TES or Fallout, or KOTOR 1?

#3. No Shining Force, but FFT? I love FFT, and agree it's top-5, but no Shining Force is just retarded. You must never played Sega Genesis ever, did you?

#4. No Sega whatsoever. You fail at life.

#5. No Secret of Evermore or Mana. 2 great ARPGs. Far better than Kingdom Hearts.


On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 03:38 PM XtraSneekyCastro said:

    First of all let me just get this out of the way, Final Fantasy VII not only was a breakthrough in cinematic storytelling but also in gameplay. As far as the graphics go let it not be forgotten that FF VII was a PS One LAUNCH title. When you compare it to the other launch titles with exeption of CSotN it blew them all away hands down. It's like knocking on an 8 year old for not understanding the concept of an artificial Einstien Rosenbridge.
    Secondly, although I dispise Nintendo one of the few things they did do right was The Legend of Zelda. I haven't played any of them since the third one but the first three were amazing. As far as the others go I can't say personally but everyone else seems to love them. To those who say Zelda isn't an RPG bear in mind neither is Kingdom Hearts or Vagrant Story. Third, Sega RPG's are conspicous by thier absence. Shining Force II still remains one my favorite RPG's to date. The Phantasy Star games also deserved a place on the list.
    Fourth, where in the hell is the Elder Scrolls series? I mean c'mon! FF VII is my favorite game of all time but even I have to admit that Oblivion is the best RPG ever. With a compelling storyline, superb graphics, a level of complexity in character customization never before seen in a video game, and more content than any game I've ever played Oblivion stands head and shoulders above it's competition. Last but not least, the simple fact that you included any game of the Suikoden series on the list just proves you are an indiviual with very little taste.
     Dude you're obviously a Madden fan trapped on a role player's body and you should really see someone about that. I understand that this is an editorial and all but if you're going to say that you've assembled a list of the "Top 15" console RPG's of all time you should factor in what the majority of people think about RPG's not just your own opinions. If you had titled this list "My Top 15" or "My favorite 15" that would be one thing, but this essentially just a list of games you like. As we can see by the posts most people disagree with you especially when it comes to FF VII, myself included.
    One more complaint I have with this list is the fact that is distinctly non-comprehensive. At age 30 I have now been playing RPG's for more than 20 years, not claiming to be an expert just saying I've seen some come and go, and the sad fact is MOST of the best RPG's ever aren't on this list. The majority represented here are PS One & PS2 era titles, although this was sort of the heyday for RPG's many exellent games were made before and since.

                                "Castro's Top 15"

15. Star Ocean: Till the End of Time (PS2)
14. Faxanadu (NES)
13. Final Fantasy II (SNES)
12. Kingdom Hearts (PS2)
11. Valkryie Profile (PS One)
10. Y's III: Wandererd from Y's (Genesis)
 9. Pirates! Gold (Genesis)
 8. Radiata Stories (PS2)
 7. Phantasy Star 3: Generations of Doom (Genesis)
 6. Wild Arms: Second Ignition (PS One)
 5. The Secret of Mana (SNES)
 4. The Legend of Zelda (NES)
 3. Shining Force 2 (Genesis)
 2. Elder Scrolls: Oblivion (PS3/Xbox 360)
 1. Final Fantasy VII (PS One)

On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 03:46 PM Miko said:

I can't believe you gave FFVII an honorable mention.

That thing's a mix of godawful generic JRPG 'gameplay' (protip: select 'attack' and try not to smash the console with a hammer every time a random battle starts up before you've taken two steps) and the worst CGI anime in the world: Profoundly dumb plot with the usual unhealthy dollop of pseudomystical mumbojumbo, wafer-thin character development, dialog that was seemingly puked up by an ADHD-ridden toddler - it's a big fat sticky turd that sold a bajillion copies because it had pretty FMV.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 04:42 PM BlackFlame said:

Games on this list that shouldn't even be in the top 20:

Valkerie Profile? Not really, no.
Lunar: No.
Pokemon: No.
Earthbound: No.
Paper Mario: No.
Sorry Star Wars fanboys, none of the Knights series belongs.
Maybe Suikoden II. Not Suikoden III.

Disgaea, the console Baldurs Gate, and Fable don't even deserve honorable mention.

FF: VII should obviously be promoted.
So should Xenogears.

Missing from this list:

Mario RPG. WAY better than Paper Mario; there's a reason it's hard to find.
You've totally missed the Star Ocean series.
The original Balder's Gate should make this list.

But, your choices do reveal something of your metric:

You are judging these games not neccesarily on their total merit, but you are attempting to measure them as "RPGs" which here you've tried to hack out everything but their systems.

One thing is wrong with that: what makes RPGs enjoyable is not their battle systems, it's thier story, and how enjoyable they are to play. Playing FF:VII is tons more engaging than FF:II. If I had to play 50 hours of one or the other, I'd totally choose FF:VII because I wouldn't be locked in the same boring combat system over and over again.

Which gets us to why FF:VII was great: it had side-games, and engaging side-quests. You could go to the arcade and play any of a number of games. Many of the important plot bits were side-games. What made FF:VII great was precisely that it wasn't one meaningless random encounter after another, but that along the way you had to stop and play various other mini-games to move forward. And of course, the plot of FF:VII was much better written than the plot of even FF:VI... the only game with a better written plot-line on this list is Vagrant Story. There are no more iconic characters in RPG than the FF:VII cast.

I suppose this could be a difference in when you started playing these games-- I find it's harder for younger gamers to have any clue that all the 'cliches' they have problems with in FF:VII started in FF:VII to begin with, that before FF:VII these concepts had never existed in the first place outside of some rarely-read Japanese Manga. Damn Whippersnappers.    

On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 05:09 PM Lanceletkronc said:

Well, I for one agree with most of your choices. Especially FF VI! Cheers!


On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 05:33 PM Viz said:

Great earthbound review, easily on of the best snes rpgs. Deserves a higher spot on the list in my slightly jaded point of view!

On Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 08:25 PM unseth said:

Perhaps you are a little too young to remember great RPG's such as Might and Magic, Bard's Tale, and Wizardry.


On Tue, Sep 25, 2007, 05:09 AM DarthEnder said:


Pretty good list.  Not perfect obviously.  I'm not really sure HOW this list was assembled, but in a numerical list, you don't get honorable mentions for individual spots.  If something almost makes 4th place but not quite...it becomes number 5.  List should be remade into a top 20 with the honorable mentions incorporated into it.

As for the listmakers themselves.  Chronotrigger should be higher. KotOR1, Secret of Mana, Skies of Arcadia and Super Mario RPG should all be on the list.

Other than that, it's good.


And for christsakes people.  Zelda is not an RPG.  Especially from OoT forward.  It has more in common with God of War than it does with Final Fantasy.

On Tue, Sep 25, 2007, 05:48 AM DarthEnder said:

Basically, his list really should look like this:

1.  Final Fantasy 6
2.  Final Fantasy Tactics
3.  Suikoden 2
4.  Chrono Trigger
5.  Knights of the Old Republic 2
6.  Paper Mario
7.  Final Fantasy 4
8.  Earthbound
9.  Kingdom Hearts
10. Pokemon Red/Blue
11. Vagrant Story
12. Lunar: Silver Star Story
13. Suikoden 3
14. Dragon Warrior 3
15. Valkyrie Profile
16. Final Fantasy 7
17. Fable
18. Xenogears
19. Disgaea: Hour of Darkness
20. Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2

On Tue, Sep 25, 2007, 04:49 PM Transference said:

Mike Zeller -- Thanks for the well-thought-out list.  I thought that it was certainly a great nidus for discussion.  

I am a little confused at the amount of anger that this post seems to have drawn.  I love RPGs, and I have nearly played myself into unemployment at times, but I just don't understand the point of all of the insults.  If you disagree with the author, fine.  There are points where I disagree with him.  Nevertheless, there is no reason to be uncivil.  Just my two cents.  Enjoy flaming me, as I know some of you will find some need to do.

On Tue, Sep 25, 2007, 05:40 PM Obsidian Hawk said:

Honestly I have played a lot of the  RPG's listed and I will have to go with FF6 also as number 1.  Yes 7 hate pretty graphics and everything but it cant be compared to 6.  FF6 had a variety of stories and hidden characters, among other things.  If you work hard you will find out the true story behind Shadow, Strago and Realm which was a good side quest.  Or the side quest to save Cyan's soul, or scoring a jackpot with Setzer at the begining of the game and summoning  The Crusader.  It has the most variety of any of the FF games.

I am disappointed though that Secret of Mana and Illusion of Gaia were not mentioned.  Those are great rpg's with great stories behind them and good character development.


On Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 11:37 AM Max said:

this is just too funny not to post :)
















On Thu, Sep 27, 2007, 11:20 AM frenzyg1 said:

You should really check out Golden Sun 1 and 2.  Excellent RPG/Action/Puzzle games.  They're sort of like Zelda for the action parts, but your character actually levels up and gains magic as the game progresses.  It also has a very unique magic system.

These 2 games were for the GBA and I can't recommend them highly enough.

On Mon, Oct 1, 2007, 06:53 PM kristin said:

THANK YOU for putting FF7 as an honorable mention. It's a good game, yes, but I've played *so* many games I've liked much better.

Other RPGs that are awesome, for those posting new comments: Golden Sun 1 and 2 for GBA, Tales of Symphonia for GC, Tales of the Abyss for PS2. The Tales series doesn't ususally have the most unique stories (your typical World In Danger, Chosen Boy Must Save It for the most part), but I still found them incredibly engaging, and the characterization is awesome. Abyss has a fairly unique story, actually, now that I think about it...hmm.

ANYWAYS moral is: play a Tales game. They're awesome.

On Mon, Oct 1, 2007, 09:43 PM THINKER said:

**********************
THINK PLEASE
**********************

WHEN A PERSON INSULTS ANOTHER, THEY DEMONSTRATE WEAKNESS.


On Tue, Oct 2, 2007, 04:27 AM Neno said:

Ok. I LOVE FF7 BUT! I am not here to rant about that. I just have a few things to say... First of all...I'm not a Zelda fan but, if you didn't add that to the list because it was an "action-RPG" then why Balder's Gate or Kingdom Hearts...? Those are definetly not a typical RPG if you ask me. Second, people posting....read what the man said in the begining please...NO PC GAMES. NO GAMES WITHIN THE LAST YEAR OF THE POST. So, stop yelling FALLOUT!! Oh..also forgot he said no Action RPGs. So, stop yelling ELDER SCROLLS! lol.

Anyway, almost done. I really do think Legend of Dragoon SHOULD have been on the list (and a few others) only because it was just an amazing game that came from freaking SCEA!! It was sooo overshadowed and although it had its faults (some battles were OVERLY difficult), it was still a great game.

Ok. Now, lastly. For someone that has played through FF2,3,7,8,9, and X. I'm sorry but, my favorite is still FF7. Not because of Sephiroth. Not because of it being "ZOMG FF RULZ!" but, because of the fact that its story is not as simple as you people say it is. That the materia system was/is the best of the next-gen Final Fantasys (because guardian was crap, sphere grid was crap, 9 was decent Id say 2nd best, and don't get me started on X-2). The characters were NOT plain or rehashed at ALL! You had Cloud, yes the start of an ongoing trend of heros but, he was the START. Barret, tragic past and burden, thinking he was the one that destroyed his hometown. Cid, all the man lived for was to go into space and Shinra wouldn't allow him to do it. Vincent, this man has the deepest backstory and ties in the most with Sepiroth because he was having an affair with Sephiroths' birth mother! Red XIII, originally thought to be an expieriment, this char has another emotional backstory with his father. The whole scene where he realizes his father didn't run away and he was the son of a TRUE warrior that to that DAY was still fighting for his villiage although he was petrified??? Come on! Last but, not least...Sephiroth. I'll go ahead and say that he is nothing (as a villian) compared to Kain but, relavent to my defense of FF7 and the thrashing it has taken...I will say that he became a tortured soul because he was lied to his whole life (or thought he was lied to) because he finds out that he was apart of the "Jenova Expieriments" and with this new knowledge, he believes that Jenova is his REAL mother and goes insane. Burning down Clouds' hometown, releasing Jenova back onto the world, getting thrown into the lifestream by Cloud, and then using his sub-concious and strong will infused with the lifestream, tries to take control of all the Jenova cells (hence why Cloud with his weak will is controlled by him a few times in the game) on the planet and tries to finish what his "mother" started when she crash landed on the planet during the time of the Cetra.

There you have it. The REASON why FF7 has depth. If that isn't depth then what is??? There is a LOT more to the story that I am leaving out but, try to play through the game again and get the hidden scenes that are sprawled throughout the game to learn them. Including the ones about Cloud and Zack, Professor Gast and Aeriths' mom, and Lucrecia and Vincent. If you don't know those names then you really should go play the game again and this time pay attention to the story. Its just a shame that when people don't understand a story, make a judgement on a game based on fans or perception or even its popularity...that you allow yourself to argue about trivial matters. If you have never played the game, don't say anything bad about it. If you believe the story sucked because of this or that, learn more about it and make sure that you are not missing something. That is what I do. I will even admit that although I LOVE Xenogears, it was quite confusing at first but, once I learned more about what they were talking about, I understood it and learned to love it because it was something sooo different with its battle system and storytelling (although disc 2 seemed a bit rushed with how the narrated what was going on instead of you playing it..) and I can't talk about it without mentioning its soundtrack. It was brilliant.

Ok. Now I end my long arse post. Agree? Disagree? Go ahead and post. I enjoy seeing others' opinions. =)


On Mon, Oct 15, 2007, 11:21 PM peter said:

This list is absolutely TERRIBLE. I cannot conceive how FFVII did not make the top 5. What about Chrono Cross, it did get an extremely rare 10 on Gamespot for all you naysayers. Vagrant Story is another awful pick. This is an AWFUL list, the worst i have seen for RPG's...SAD

On Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 06:48 PM Blue said:

To the FFIII/VI fanboys lashing out at their FFVII counterparts for being nostalgic:  haven't you ever thought that maybe *you* are a bit nostalgic about your favorite game as well?  Nostalgia is such a funny "excuse" to throw around when compiling these lists.. ever consider that your nostalgia might have been the reason for you to compile the list in the first place?

While not the greatest game in the world, FFVII still deserves to be on a list such as this (long before Kingdom Hearts, what the hell?).

FFVI was a brilliant game as well.  Both of them were fantastic.  A "top 15 CRPG list" missing either of these two games in the top ten is flawed.

When comparing the two together, I tend to prefer FFVII a bit more.  Reason being:  it was IMMERSIVE.  I felt more attachment to the characters, the story drew me in more.

FFVI had less of this effect on me -- it was still very gripping, but as someone mentioned before, it needed more depth into the characters.

Oh and btw:  the first FF I played was FFVI.

On Sat, Oct 20, 2007, 05:10 PM bang said:

FINAL FANTASY 7 RULES AS A ROLE PLAYING GAME. IT IS NOW POP CULTURE FOR ANY TRUE GAMER AND THERE ARE MILLIONS OF DEVOTED FANS WHO TOTALLY AGREE. IT HAS A GREAT STORY LINE, CHARACTERS, AND IT IS PRACTICALLY A WORLD OUTSIDE OF THIS ONE THAT ANY TRUE GAMER WOULD VISIT. JOIN IN AND PLAY.


On Mon, Oct 22, 2007, 10:40 AM eric said:

ff6 is my fav rpg of all time as well - definitely the best.  I think this is a good list and the games people are screaming about that you didn't include (chrono cross, ocarina of time, etc.) are completly overrated.  the funniest thing is that people are throwing fits because you have a different opinion than them...

On Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 11:19 PM The Master said:

Congrats on not including FFVII, because now you expose the stupid fanboys idiotic behaviour, and it cracks me up how fucking stupid they are.


On Thu, Nov 8, 2007, 05:35 PM Johnny said:

Great list and good job!!!!!

=)

I don't agree with all of them, I think Star Ocean 2 needs to be number 2 on this entire list. Its a hundred times better than Final Fantasy 7 which I own, and nearly as good as FF4 & FF6 for me!

Star Ocean 2 has a complex plot, great characters like Leon, Ash & Claude and deep development for that type of game. Its long, involving and amazing.

By comparison, Final Fantasy 7 has a cliche plot, shallow characters like Tifa Lockhart, Cait Sith & Cid Highwind - and a disturbing number of plot-twists which leave a bad taste.

They killed off my favorite characters in that game like Aeris, Bugenhagen, etc. and did it in the most stupid ignorant way of doing a plot-twist I've ever seen.

It was a SHALLOW story, and the Advent Children spin-offs are only more of the same. For whatever reason, there was no truly interesting characters in this game after you got through with the Emo-kid Cloud Strife.

Also, FF6 had a far deeper plot and cool very controlled characters like Locke who did not have a split personality disorder. Edgar was a far more intriguing protagonist, and Terra who never died, kept the whole story very engaging right up to the end of the road battle with Kefka. Celes was one of the best characters to ever appear in a Final Fantasy.

Beyond that though, earlier FFs like FF4 had a far more classic story of good VS. evil and Golbez was a complex and awesome villain. Cecil and Rosa were perfect & the Ninja Edge along with Kain constantly turned the story onwards making it into an unfolding journey as they unraveled the key to the Four Fiends. I believe as far as drama goes, this was the best Final Fantasy of all, easily on equal grounds to FF6, BECAUSE the story had amazing twists like when you find out the truth about Zeromus and Golbez. And it was also the first FINAL FANTASY where you travel into space, because learning the whole secret behind the dwarves kingdom was a refreshing experience as well as learning all about their technology. The whole aspiring to be better than the sum of its parts was FF4 in a nutshell, and the Lunarians(aliens from the moons) were far better than the Cetra.

Great job!


On Thu, Nov 8, 2007, 05:55 PM Gordan said:

" If that isn't depth then what is??? "

A story that's actually good where the depth of the plot isn't focused on Emo-kids in Leather Jackets. Who the **** really cares who his mother is?

He went insane and decided to kill everyone that's not his mother? This is story to you? To my knowledge, real villains like the Kefkas of our world have a long and detailed explanation of what they are doing. Not just because they want to bring some bleepin' ALIEN rehash back to life.

The final boss of Lufia 2 who I won't spoil it, explains why the world is better off without *SUCH & SUCH* and why he is going to do what he is going to do with the Four Seals. He almost succeeds, but instead, the world realizes DAOS is powerless. Its brilliant, and its not because he went insane due to **** plot that ended with a bad plot twist.

All the other Final Fantasy games have more story than FF7.


On Fri, Nov 9, 2007, 09:08 PM HOLYSPAMBATMAN! said:

HOLY SPAM BATMAN!!!!!

Someone shut that idiot the f*** up before he ruins this place with ripoff advertisements.


On Sun, Nov 18, 2007, 07:29 PM limitbreak said:

Haha this is probably the best review of the best rpg's of all time. I love the honorable mentions and i love your ratings but common man, FF7 as an honorable mention?? What that game has done for rpg's is unexplainable. There are still sequals and prequals comming out to this day about that game. The story was the greatest story and RPG has ever told. MATERIA!?!?! Now this is where you started smoking crack. How could you possibly not believe that materia was the GREATEST magic system ever created in any game. Period. And lastly, you people really need to get over FFIII/ VI being the greatest FF out there. It really wasn't. Great game, don't get me wrong but, FF7 and FFII easily over power it.

On Mon, Nov 19, 2007, 07:20 PM FF7 Was Garbage said:

FF7 was a piece of garbage compared to FF3 for the SNES.

It had shallow characters, horrible heroines(Tifa was one of the least memorable characters we've ever seen), shallow story(a man called Sephiroth who couldn't remember his family) and an overhyped, badly themed musical score to match.

Final Fantasy 6 overpowers and destroys FF7, as does FF2, FF4, Fallout, The Elder Scrolls one and two, Grandia II, and Skies of Arcadia along with many other games.

Now tell me, is it really such a great game after all if every one of those games are far better to people? No, and it shows. That was just what that piece of trash deserved. Also, the Aeris character had more emotion than that entire game put together and they decided to do away with her. At the end of the day, even the best of FF7 had no emotional depth like Rosa, Celes, and the first Kain as well as Caleb did and do in their respective role playing games. No contest.


On Sat, Nov 24, 2007, 12:56 PM Chris said:

Lol did they never play Paper Mario 2?

On Sat, Dec 1, 2007, 06:59 PM GAMESPOTSUCKS said:

Got forwarded this by my mate!!!!

http://www.petitiononline.com/removegs/petition.html

I totally agree, Gamespot sucks!!!!!!

And they over rated Final Fantasy 7 also by giving it nearly a perfect 10, that game was highly over rated all the way!!!

FF6 will always be the best!!!!!


On Fri, Dec 7, 2007, 01:31 AM Birdman said:

How can anyone say that the storyline in FFVII is "standard?"  It has THE best storyline of any game ever made and the Materia system is the best system of any final fantasy game.  I don't see any movies out there about any other final fantasies???  But VII was the only one to have a movie(Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children, which is amazing).  I love all Final Fantasies but VII is my favorite.

On Fri, Dec 7, 2007, 07:12 AM FF7Sucks said:

Average story, average music, repetitive plotline with generic characters that stick out such as Tifa Lockheart.

Average uninspired acting even for the movie. That's why the movies were made, people were drawn to what I consider mediocre garbage.

If anything should have gotten the FF movie treatment, it was not this or spirits within.....It would be Final Fantasy 4.

FF4 and FF6 are a thousand times greater than Final Fantasy 7.......they always will be.


On Wed, Dec 12, 2007, 01:38 PM weny said:

final fantasy is awsome

On Sat, Dec 15, 2007, 05:34 PM davo said:

I haven't read through all of the comments, so I don't know whether this has been mentioned. But I am highly surprised that Chrono Cross was not mentioned on this list... I mean it's all opinionated, true, but to not even give it honorable mention is just insane. It's my number 1.

On Mon, Dec 17, 2007, 03:44 AM ChronoCross said:

ITS ME!!!! CHRONO CROSS!!!!

"I blew chunks too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i am an average game, and am overhyped like incredible crap"


On Mon, Dec 24, 2007, 04:22 PM Nark said:

wtf....with this lsit you must be kidding, right?...


On Wed, Dec 26, 2007, 06:49 PM JL said:

well...this list is kinda good...but u should play more and learn more about RPG's games...Cuz The best history and battles are shown at Breath of Fire...whichever u play from the first game trought Dragon Quarter u should try them...I recommend them   


On Sat, Jan 5, 2008, 02:08 AM rpgmaniak said:

Final Fantasy 7 is an average rpg,deal with it =P.FF8 was even worst.It's only that great because most of you gentleman,started there,and never went before that. *hell no...it's not 3D*!Not 3D=baaaadddd game UGH!!Go give Lufia II a go and find out what a great rpg is made of.

On Sat, Jan 5, 2008, 05:33 PM mlegion said:

I can believe people keep complaining about games like oblivion and other elder scrolls games and baldurs gate not being on it its a list of CONSOLE rpg's, and while those mentioned are good rpg's THEY ARENT _CONSOLE_ RPG'S.

On Mon, Jan 7, 2008, 12:20 AM renzo said:

The best game is DIABLO II Yeah!!!!

On Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 02:47 PM Chuckie said:

Your list totally sucks.  You even broke your own criteria by taking up so many slots with sequels.  But your most idiotic move was including Pokemon and not even mentioning Morrowwind the best console RPG of all time, period, with nothing else that even comes close.  Morrowwind, more than any other game released on a console recreates the freedom you have in pen and paper RPG's.  It was the reason I bought my XBOx! You don't know what the hell you're talking about.  Don't pretend to be some RPG expert when you make such a shit list.  And you even left out Breath of Fire and Secret of Mana, too.  Also, you discredit Zelda but include Paper Mario?  You are just a Zelda hater wanting to jusify some of your lame inclusions.

On Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 05:50 PM Max said:

You are right, man, we are total Zelda haters.  That's why Link tops our Top 25 Video Game Heroes of All Time list.  That bastard, I hope he is really hurting being in the first place! As for Morrowind, it's a great RPG indeed.  However, we hesitated to include it since it's really a PC RPG which was (finally!) ported over to consoles due to popular demand.  As such, it's really not a console-born RPG in the same way that the other games on the list are (even KOTOR was a console game before it was a PC game).  So yeah, we actually had a good reason.  But hey, maybe if you just keep screaming "sucks" and "shit list" people will actually think you are intelligent.

On Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 01:49 PM Know Moar Peas said:

Why do people whine on these lists? Heck i think aydin chronicles : first mage should have gotten an honourable mention (and a remake) but thats MY opinion. You cant diss others opinions. The only people who diss opinion lists like these are 12yr old Fanboys, OR, Pedophile 30yr old fancreeps... But either way, its intresting to HEAR others opinions and keeping your mouth closed long enough to hear WHY they made such an opinion instead of screaming "ZOMFGBBQ! How retarded are you for not having anal munchers 2 : Revenge from Carpet castle on ur leest! u need 2 diez!!11!1!"

Sincerely Yours - That Effing Nerd Who Grew Up And F***ed Yo' Couch Nigga

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008, 10:32 PM ff7 was shit said:

ff7 was a SHITTY uninspired game that did a few things good and that was why it sold alot of copies


shitty uninspired characters, shitty story, morrowind was an okay game, but star ocean 2 was way better than any of these games


and final fantasy 6 is the best RPG of the decade. oh and whoever left off lost odyssey, you are a traitor. lost odyssey is the best RPG to come out since planescape torment..............

On Tue, Mar 4, 2008, 04:23 PM Res Nullius said:

Very good list! I just love skimming through all of the hateful comments here. Everything about a game being the 'best' is a matter of opinion. Of course no one will agree with it exactly.

Though, I gotta say, it pains me to see Chrono Cross not included. I consider it to be one of the best RPG's I've ever played...in the very least, it's one of the top three best Playstation RPG's I've ever played (Which do not include Final Fantasy VII, thank you very much). The soundtrack is epic, the battle system completely eliminates all those boring grinding elements that are so prevalent in RPG's, branching storylines, beautiful backgrounds, a large cast of characters...ahhhh...the first game that truly stole my heart. If I were to make a list like this, Chrono Cross would be at number one...which very few people will agree with. ):

But yeah, great list. It's nice to see Suikoden getting some love.

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 03:39 PM Rodrigo said:

  BAD, BAD!!!!!!

ANDE THE BEST????? THE BEST IS TERRANIGMA, DO NOT FORGET IT!!!!!

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 10:20 PM Tony said:

Why do people think that the Zelda games are RPG's when they are action/adventure games. Get it right kids.....duh!!!!!

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008, 10:40 PM Dave the Slave said:

I will be perfectly honest, I am not a connoisseur of role playing games (particularly on console, I mostly play PC games), as I have honestly not even attempted the majority of the games on this list.

However, the ones that I have played, I completely agree with their placement.

Furthermore, thanks to this list, I will be trying all of the games that I have not tried and you have suggested I do.

The only complaint that I do have is the absence of Shining Force and Shining Force II.  Perhaps it's nostalgia, but I am absolutely obsessed with these games.  I just believe they should have AT LEAST been an honorable mention.

Overall, excellent list, and thank you very much for the time you took to make it.  I feel enlightened and will gladly, at the very least, attempt your suggestions (minus Pokemon).

"On Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 12:21 AM youreallysuckman said: Final Fantasy 7 getting an honorable mention makes this the worst list in worst list history.

PS

you suck

PSS

Final Fantasy 7 owns the ground you walk on

PSSS

you suck"


First of all, there is absolutely no need to flame someone like that for stating their opinion.  Opinions are opinions, they don't necessarily reflect yours.

Second of all, it is "post script".  As in, "P.S."  Hence, the further format would be "post post script".  As in, "P.P.S." not "post script script".

Way to prove your ignorance.

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008, 04:31 AM Res Nullius said:

"First of all, there is absolutely no need to flame someone like that for stating their opinion."

"you suck"

I sense logic fail


On Wed, May 14, 2008, 06:22 PM Sam said:

The list is pretty good, I think all of those games deserve to be ranked as top RPGs. I can't really complain about the order, and I agree that FF6 deserves 1st place. I would've put Valkyrie Profile in the top 3 though personally, I thought that game was awesome.

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008, 11:33 AM Greg said:

You must be super high on drugs, Which of these games has the characters that FFVII had? Cloud and Sephiroth will always be thre coolest characters in a game and it's really not even close. Final Fantasy VII also knew how to draw people in, why do many people like it? Because it is that great a game, and there's nothing you can do to stop that, it's obvious you're jealous of FFVII because it is simply the greatest rpg ever.


On Thu, Jun 19, 2008, 03:41 AM jayr said:

Any list with atleast Final Fantasy VI as the best rpg is always right in my book.  I've played many rpgs from Nintendo - PS3  and there is nothing that comes comes close.....but other "Squaresoft" games.

Squaresoft holds atleast 80 percent of any top rpg listing.


On Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 01:56 AM Dalfo said:

Okay, had to toss my hat into the fire.  I've just recently re-played FFVII before I played FFVII:CC.  My standing still holds true that although it is a very good game, it has no place in a Top 15 Consoles.  Yes, I understand the franchise it has created and how revolutionary it was for it's time.  However, it's story was weak, everyone but Cloud was static and the biggest thing it had going for it at the time (graphics) were quickly outdated on the same console with FFVIII.

So, now that's out of the way, I can say I generally agree with this listing, my excpetions being that FF Tactics was a good game but in no way better than Suikoden II.  Very, very crappy ending to FF Tactics.

Also, I must echo so many before me.  KOTOR 2 over KOTOR?  When you've shown a preference to story over mechanics, yet you place the, albeit more fluid sequel KOTOR 2, over the obviously supreme storyline KOTOR?  For shame!

Also, take everything I said in the last paragraph and replace the words, "KOTOR 2" with "Paper Mario" and "KOTOR" with Super Mario RPG.  Any RPG that can make a marshmallow and a doll named Geno characters is a good game in my book.

And I must say that this console RPG list does seem to be a little one-sided.  Do yourself a favor and pick up the Golden Sun series.

If you read one thing on this statement, "PLAY SUIKODEN II"

It will change your life.

Really.

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008, 02:32 PM nunnster said:

I Didn't see anyone say anything of the Elder Scrolls games, They are one of the best RPG's  I have ever played. You can do anything/be anyone/do any quest, at anytime you want. Its not a classic RPG, but at least one of the games (maybe 3 or 4, since I don't know if you can get 1-2 except on PC, and this list isn't for PC) should make a 15 top of all time list. Also FFVII was a great game, and on a Top 15 list I would put it maybe at #13. It is a bit over rated, although it did open a whole new world of defining RPG's. OH by the  way Lunar...you should play that  it would  be on your list  if you  have...

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008, 02:45 PM nunnster said:

P.S Oh sorry I read through more of the Comments and found someone that did say Elder Scroll 3. Another thing that comes to mind as well, For all you who are saying that FFVII didn't make the list...it did, go read number 4 again. To Make myself clear about the Lunar thing, I was not talking to the poster of this list, i was talking to everyone else that has not played it...

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008, 07:32 PM William Hal said:

Zelda doesnt quite qualify as an RPG. I also thought it Strange that The SEGA console games were all left out. Maybe you didnt have one? Shining Force is The very best of Sega, with Honorable mentions to Phantasy Star. Landstalker was good too- though doesnt REALLY qualify.
I am the FIRST to APPLAUD you on omitting FF7. Its good, but like The Red Hot Chili Peppers, We wouldn't have to push back if it wasn't considered the end all be all greatest. Most people who say FF7 is the best (and there are a fucking BILLION of them) Are younger than me and just dont know.
Anyway, I agree mostly with this list. I would say it is the best online list I have seen. Vagrant story sucked balls, and doesnt really qualify- i think. BUT, You were spot on mostly. NOBODY knows about the Suikoden series. They are AMAZING!!
Also, FF3 was the life changing game for me, not 7.

I would say that FF Tactics is the best. Never will there be a game as great. Every facet of it was amazing. The best book I ever read, The best movie I ever saw, The best game I ever played. The best soundtrack. I have defended that game in front of droves of people who worship at the FF7 alter numerous times. We may be the only two people willing to say it, but, Final Fantasy tactics is like the Beatles. Groundbreaking, and, because of the very nature of it, could never be duplicated or matched.
The Mac Daddy. The best game ever.
Peace and Love,
-Will


On Sun, Jul 20, 2008, 10:11 AM rpgfan said:

Dude I thought your list was good, but had a few problems
The Good
you had great games like chrono trigger, ff6, ff4, which all could be number 1s.
you put pokemon blue/red on the list its looked on as a kiddie game but you put it on the list which is good
The Bad
Uhmmm, FF7 should be on every top RPG list, sorry, not a fuckin "honorable" mention, especially in North America. Just because it sold like crazy and lots of people like it doesnt mean its overrated. Its obviously not the best rpg, but it still is really good and it introduced me to other ff games and rpgs in general.
PS FF8 SUCKS TOTAL DICK ur right on the guardian force system totally retarded but I thought materia system was great and I really thought that FF7 had one of the best stories and characters ever. The only real way you can bash ff7 is with its graphics, but it was 1997, and the gameplay STILL kicks ass.

Next, XENOGEARS. Buddy, are you joking me? Who fuckin hates this game??? Where the fuck is GRANDIA, thats like one of the best RPGS ever!! Suikoden II and FF tactics get 2 and 3???!!! Over CHRONO TRIGGER???!!! Chrono Cross should of been on the list...I'm mean sorry if I pissed you off, you should make another except maybe Top 30 Rpgs. Those honorable mentions were confusing as some of your choices later on...all in all though, good list

On Tue, Aug 5, 2008, 07:41 PM iiell said:

I'm sorry to tell you all this, but the author of this list was smoking crack when he made it up from his nights of playing RPGs while on magic mushrooms. It's obvious just by the lack of "good" classic RPGs that made the list. He should actually play some of these games, and then play the "REALLY GOOD CLASSIC RPGs." You may fool a few idiots with your lack of knowledge about classic RPGS, but your list blows balls buddy. Next time, play the games while you're not stoned, high and drug. Thanks.

On Thu, Aug 7, 2008, 11:14 PM Mike said:

O.o yay I can be a pretentious jerk too

oh wait I'm just drunk etc

I enjoyed reading through your list, of course any list would be incomplete blah blah, though I liked your affection to Suikoden, awesome series. You totally exempted the Breath of Fire series, and secret of mana?! I'd assume you didn't play these because I can't imagine playing all those great games and not running across them, unless you're young and didn't live through em. If you haven't played Secret of Mana(anyone reading this, believe it) go pull out your snes or get an emulator NOW.

Oh yeah so the obvious arguable point is, your comments on FFVII are...um....bold. Being my favorite story of all time, having it tattooed, and naming a kid Aerith, it's odd to say that when I saw the inital Junon cannon commercial on MTV back in the day, I expected it to be shit. At that time already being a diehard FF fan it seemed like a sellout, but I watched a buddy playing through the Shinra building and immediately begged to borrow the game. Took 3 days =/ 

FF7 is easily one of the greatest stories ever told, I could care less about the fact that at the time the graphics were amazing, and the massiveness of it added more replayability then anything around, it was just great, albeit horribly translated at times and terribly glitchy.

And for Xenogears....I appreciate that even though it's obvious you didn't love the game you paid due respect. And everything you said was true, however the main thing I think you missed the ball on is that for rpgers that play to experience a living fantasy, not just a game, xenogears was simply tops. Once you entered disc 2 it was like you were clicking through an epic novel. Xenosaga was absolutely terrible if you ask me, but no game before or after has ever done such a job of dragging the player into a living story. The only problem I could see with xeno is I'm sure alot of players couldn't sit through the seemingly endless story progression, to love this game you'd have to be almost sick with obsession for clicking through box after box of text...but hey as someone who grew up through playing rpgs how could that now be what you love...

For the rest of FF, tactics is simply....outstanding you nailed it, FF6 = absolute greatness too. FF8 was....tough to love like a redheaded stepkid, I personally hated it, but in honestly it is a great rpg standalone, but it in no way lived up to the record of FF at that time, the story was good...but the battle system and interface were atrocities to a real FF fan. FF9 was good but it tried too hard to pay homage to the old school, FFX was still good overall, personally I loved the gameplay, but the story was....played out at best, but blitz ball straight up kicked ass. FFXII ...well I don't even consider it an FF, FF died with X.


On Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 04:21 PM Airlocke said:

Okay... I liked the list, thought ffvii deserved a spot on there, even if it was horrible just because of the impact on the industry. However it is a good game, not the best but a thoroughly enjoyable one. The story started out amazing, it just had it's own unique feel to it, however, later on the story started to revert to cliched elements is tts. I really don't see why some people don't like the characters, while barret truly is a walking stereotype all of the characters had a very good backstory. I really would have liked to see Chrono Trigger as no. 1. True masterpiece.

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 04:21 AM Chris said:

"...it's also responsible for us being able to play quality games like Radiata Stories and Growlanser III."

Radiata Stories was one of the worst rpg's I have ever played.  That right there invalidates your whole list.

Also, you made a whole paragraph about why ff6 was great and you didn't even mention Kefka.  The guy is the greatest villian besides Sephiroth, and he may even be BETTER because he actually managed to destroy the world and become a god - unlike Sephiroth.

You, sir, are retarded.

On Thu, Sep 4, 2008, 10:37 PM Broadie25 said:

Growlanser III? ...never frickin heard of it!! This list is totally horse dung.. Final Fantasy 7 and Xenogears get an "honorable mention?"  You got to be kidding, FF7 has one of the most compelling storys in RPG history, you actually care about the individual characters and their storys(and has the coolest villain). FF7 even captivated your emotion when you witnessed the death of a very significant character.  Xenogears is high ranking as well,  it implemented more than one combat system were you could fight in giant mech-like weapons. I havent seen alot of RPG's like that, yeah the story got weird at times but the battle system and most elements of the story were great!!(characters also likable) Fable was basically a hack n slash game that tried so hard to be an RPG and failed!!   Did the makers of this list actually play the frickin games, or read the back of the box? (Pokemon? what the hell?) Hmm, must be in Junior High school!!


On Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 12:44 AM Joshua said:

I looked at your list and saw Final Fantasy III and Tactics at the top.  I absolutely HAD to give you credit right off the bat for that.  Those are arguably top 5s right there that often don't get enough recognition.  Chrono Trigger is good too.  And yes, anyone saying FF VII is better than FF III/IV has almost certainly never played III/IV.  It's no contest.

With that said, I think your list would be better if you'd played some Sega Genesis games, no offense.  Like others have been saying, the Shining Force games (especially the last 2 Shining Force 1 and 2 - Shining in the Darkness was good but not top 15 caliber) and Phantasy Star Games (III or IV especially, II wasn't as good) should've definitely been mentioned.  Some other lesser known games like Pirates! Gold and Shadowrun should've also been mentioned.  (I can't believe nobody mentioned Shadowrun for the Sega!!!)  D&D: Warriors of the Eternal Sun, Landstalker, Lord of the Rings Volume 1, and Zelda:  Link to the Past were all good too, although I don't know about top 15 good.  Also, for those saying Secret of Mana should make the list, I'll agree it was a well-made game, but I was just never crazy about it.  The 2/3 player capability was impressive for an RPG, but it was basically Zelda with multi-player enabled, and I wasn't crazy about the story.  And by the way, I don't understand leaving off Zelda because it wasn't a true RPG.  Zelda isn't but Paper Mario was?  Come on now.

Now for the whole Final Fantasy controversy.  All I'm going to say is FF III is hands down the best Final Fantasy game.  Period.  I'm not going to argue.  If you say FF VII is the best, just play FF III/IV.  Try it.  It will...  blow...  your...  mind.  No other game before or since has come close to the storyline or depth (Shining Force II and Phantasy Star IV came somewhat close though).  However, I happen to like FF VII and VIII as well.  I loved the minigames and different directions the games took; the depth of the games.  I also love FF X, Blitzball by itself could be a great game in itself, and that was just a sub-plot of FF X.  I think people who esteem minigames more highly will inevitably rate FF VII, VIII, and X more towards the top.  Just had to point out that I'm not bashing the later Final Fantasy games, I liked them as well.  I wouldn't mind seeing FF VII, VIII, or X make the list.

Simply from what I've played, I'd make the following list, just off the top of my head:

1.  Final Fantasy III/IV (SNES)
2.  Final Fantasy Tactics (Playstation 2)
3.  Phantasy Star IV (Sega Genesis)
4.  Shining Force 2 (Sega Genesis)
5.  Final Fantasy VIII (Playstation)
6.  Final Fantasy VII (Playstation)
7.  Shadowrun (Sega Genesis)
8.  Chrono Trigger (SNES)
9.  Final Fantasy X (Playstation 2)
10.  Tales of Symphonia (Playstation 2)
11.  Shining Force 1 (Sega Genesis)
12.  Pirates!  Gold (Sega Genesis)
13.  Phantasy Star III (Sega Genesis)
14.  Landstalker - The Treasure of King Nole (Sega Genesis)
15.  Shining in the Darkness (Sega Genesis)

Honorable Mentions and why they didn't make the list: 
Zelda:  Link to the Past (story was just too weak and generic), Secret of Mana (just wasn't my cup of tea - a weird, cartoony game with a bizarre plot, though nice multi-player ability), D&D: Warriors of the Eternal Sun (too little game variation), and Phantasy Star II (less game depth than the later versions).

I've never played Chrono Cross, the Suikoden games, those Ogre games, Fable, the Ys games, Elder Scrolls games, or Lunar (basically all the newer stuff - I gave up video game for several years).  From what I've heard of them, if I had, they might be on the list, so don't bite my head off about it.  I suppose mine would be more an old-style games list, with the exception of some newer Final Fantasy games.

On Sun, Sep 28, 2008, 10:54 AM badlist said:

Revolutionary does not always = good. FF6 has a very repetitive and stale battle system, the abilities are boring and lack depth, graphics are shit, characters and storyline are about as basic and uninteresting as you can get. 7 blows it out of the water in every way, and i don't even think FF7 is in the top 3 best rpgs. Just because you grew up with a game does not make it the best game ever.

You're list fails, you've left out so many prominent titles, and you seem overly bias towards retro games just because they were the first of their time. Have you even played 15 rpgs?

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008, 01:35 PM hashem said:

Ok first of all WTF


ok this list happens to be on of the worst list i ever seen in my life

final fantasy 7 is the best in the sires
am suprised that you didnt put it in number one you fuck head

go suck cook rather than making stupid mother fucking list that is so fucked up

by the way dude last night was one of the greatest sex i have

your mama rocks

 
 

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008, 05:44 PM IIell said:

Sir, you are insane. FF7's materia system was one of the best new and original magic systems to date. You put FF Tactics on a RPG list, which isn't even a RPG game. Your list fails, sorry.

On Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 02:39 AM MJK said:

I quibble because you left off what was probably the best of the Final Fantasy's -- X -- and you overlooked the very nicely executed Shadow Hearts games.  Their story is just as dark and moody as many, but the fact that they are set in a twisted, nightmarish version of our world makes them that much better.  And the gameplay system, especially the Judgement Ring, leaves Square's ATB in the dust. 

But all in all, nice list.  Nice to see not just the same titles re-hashed over and over again...


On Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 09:05 AM RPG Gamer said:

Not bad of a list...

Obviously their will be disagreements here and there, but I can tell you know your stuff by looking at your top 4 and for goodness sakes not putting FFVII on the list (ha!).

I'm glad you didn't but in any Zeldas either for that matter, but terribly sad Secret of Mana did not make the list...

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 09:05 PM Metallipath6 said:

Thanks for the list, I've played through Final Fantasy 4, 6, and Vagrant Story now. I already played through Tactics, and some others there... The only disagreement I have is for Final Fantasy 8 ;) I loved the GF system. lol Strong list anyways, thanks!

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 11:27 PM Kevin said:

Awesome list. Only things i really missed was morrowind, but you explained that quite well in your other comments so i understand.
thanks again

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 11:51 PM Lute said:

Stumbleupon'd this list, and am extremely sad that one of my favorite series is not on the list.

Where is the love for SaGa Frontier?

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008, 04:31 PM James said:

Good list.  I, of course, disagree with some of your choices like most people, but overall it's pretty solid.

My only gripes with it is there is no Shadow Hearts:Covenant or Skies of Arcadia.  SH:C is one of the most brilliant games I've ever played, while Skies is one of most fun RPGs ever. 

I absolutely agree with you leaving off FFVII, though.  That game is severely overrated in almost every aspect, and this is coming from a die-hard FF fan.  I was completely obsessed with the series until FFVII.  That's when my faith in it started to wane, and it kept going downhill with every new one that was released...until FFXII was released.  Amazing game!


On Tue, Jan 27, 2009, 06:18 PM Ricola said:

I think that everyone is biased towards supporting the first rpg they ever played.  For many it was FF7, and for quite a few older people it was FF3.  I think both are underrated and both have completely boring gameplay.  I tried to replay both games which i adored at their time of release, and cant get through the monotony.  I also miss secret of mana from this list (which doesnt have boring gameplay at all) but im biased because that was the first rpg i ever played. 

By the way, zelda is not an RPG (except #2), what is with everyone saying this lately?  Dont take RPG literally; if you do, every game is an RPG.  Even in pong you play the role of a paddle.

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009, 06:20 PM Ricola said:

I meant overrated...and I never said it, but other than FF3 being so high, good list.

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009, 08:24 PM garh said:

well dude, i dont know but this list is a little weird... i just cant believe that u put FF VII as a honorable mention. that game is great !!!! i think its the best rpg ever ! i havent played the FF3 or FF6 but dude.. al least u should have put FFVII at the second on the list... i dont think a strategic like FF tactics would be better than the legendary FFVII...

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 07:11 PM Zach said:

I agree with most of what you have on here. Been playing the final fantasy since forever. Gotta agree with you about 6 and 4, brings the memories back. You should check out FF Lengend III for some serious classic action, it's a gameboy monochrome wonder, lol. Only a couple 'additions' to your list tho: Chrono Cross, Secret of Mana and Star Ocean II and Elder Scrolls IV. You ain't seen shit till you messed with SOII's item creation and the story is pretty awesome; musics cool too. Wild Arms should've been a honorable mention as well, but hell, if everybody could agree on the best RPGs then we'd be stuck with the same shit day in and day out, nobody would want to change.

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009, 06:30 PM nigger said:

FFVII is extremely appealing to many people, yet you seem to try to put it down and spark controversy and get everyone to rage at you, faggot

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On Sat, May 16, 2009, 06:25 AM körtpärtel said:

I know an obvious reason why the Fallout games aren't on this list.

Because it's a list of the top 15 CONSOLE RPGs of all time.

On Mon, May 18, 2009, 04:18 PM mike t said:

great list...FF7 sux so u right there..FF3 is awesome..i still play it on occasion..great choice for #1..probly mine to.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009, 03:51 PM Suesseacate said:

He complains of his monotonous work schedule continuously. Exantyaxionee

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